CCTV: most images are not as helpful as this one of a pickpocket on Oxford Street

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• Most CCTV cameras are 'illegal', watchdog claims

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The whole CCTV thing is a sham. Ditto for the "road safety cameras". They're just a revenue raising device for the malignant "road safety industry" - greedy politicians, lazy journalists, slack coppers and dodgy academics, all with their snouts in the fine revenue trough. And in Australia, when the money starts to dry up - they just arbitrarily lower the limit, oh and impose a 2 km/h tolerance. That way the revenue avalanche just keeps coming in..

- Bad Brad, Melbourne, Australia

actually, this is a response to those that say..'if your doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about' ive heard it said countless times, by various groups and i dont buy it. i'm old enough to remember when in this country, you were free to do whatever you wanted, provided you didnt break the law. over the last 20 years ive seen that change entirely, it now seems that you cant move for legislation, and more often than not, we're even told THE WAY we should do things, meanwhile look at the powers the state now has to control and monitor us, and to interfere in our lives, and all the while theyve been saying, 'if youve done nothing wrong, then youve nothing to worry about' well i worry about having my privacy invaded, and my freedom taken away, and also having an ever more corrupt state mess with my life, i dont trust em, i dont like em, and for those that still use the 'if youve done nothing.....' statement take it to its logical conclusion you'd have police and cameras everywhere, total control, almost on par with a mega huge open prison where the movements of everyone are tracked, and you cant do ANYTHING WITHOUT BIENG OBSERVED by someone, the idea of that makes me cringe, a nation of free people slowly turned into a nation of prisoners, and all the while the state keeps saying 'if youve done nothing wrong then youve nothing to worry about' except the state itself in my view

- Steve, london

About two years ago I was walking home in the dark having had to work late. I had just left the station and was in the process of phoning home when a young man approached. He produced a knife and demanded my phone. No contest - mugger 1, me , nil.

I made my way to a nearby payphone and called police, who, very much to my surprise, arrived in minutes. I began to explain my ordeal when the officer stopped me. "We know, it was seen on CCTV. The guy has been arrested down the road".... and I got my phone back. (I make that 2-1 to me).

My point is that the whingers on this site have probably their own agenda. As an 'average joe' who has benefitted from CCTV, I am fully supportive of their continued existance. No, it didn't prevent my ordeal but it certainly made me smile on the payback!

Oh, and he got 4 months.

- Geoff D, London UK

The Lib Dem survey that provided these statistics is flawed (as well as being very old news now) because the questions that were asked of the Local Authorities were so vague as to get different answers from each authority - I know, I was one of the CCTV Managers that answered the 'Freedom of Information Act' enquiry from them. I can only talk about the authority I work for, but here the emphasis is on crime and disorder, not parking offences, and it is staffed 24/7. CCTV DOES work, every month large numbers of arrests assisted by CCTV are made OVER AND ABOVE those made by the Police unaided by CCTV.
Our cameras are monitored by average people who care about their fellow citizens, not 'state spies' as some loon implied above, and they make a real contribution to reducing crime. The deterrent factor does work as well, on some crimes, I have seen a camera go up and reduce drugs dealing in a street to almost zero, compared to before the camera was put there, when local residents were at the end of their tether with dealers and prostitutes outside their front doors every night, right through the night. It's about time there was a sensible debate about CCTV in this country.
Andy

- Andy, London

Yet another article about CCTV written through ignorance and paranoia....oh and political gain (who are the criminals again).

I work in the industry and can assure you that everybody I work with tries very hard to make the lives of the public safer, not to make money. I will not apologise for trying to do something to help law abiding people. If you are not committing a crime we are not interested in you, however paranoid you are. We are all highly experienced and trained and we are all well aware of the law, including Human Rights!!

If you get a speeding ticket, as much as you may not want to admit it to yourself, you have committed a crime, you only have to know how many people die as a result of speeding motorists to know that!

Yet again this article does not take into account the crimes that have been detered by the CCTV cameras or the crimes which were not so serious because the CCTV operator got the emergency services to the scene quickly.

How about you stop picking on people who are trying to make you safer when you're walking around the streets. CCTV Operators are not the ones out there committing the crimes....it the reason you don't like CCTV cameras is because your doing something you know you shouldn't be!!

- Cctv Worker, London

when will you people realise, those that run state organisations DONT see the world like WE do. frankly anyone who thinks that camera's are put in to prevent crime, are mad, ok some might be!. a lot of camera's are dummy for a start, also the feed ends up in a room of up to 48 monitors (screens) and about 10 staff to run the whole thing, do the maths even if they could somwhow split their sight, they would still be 28 eyes short, and thats even if they are as good at the job as we would hope they are, and most are not. possiibly the best run camera's are the police ones, but even theyre not infalable, i bet there are parts of london, where if you go somewhere you shouldnt, you'll be picked up right away because there WILL be people watching, and they will be very good at the job, like for sensitive targets & security type areas, and those that control it, wouldve asked to extend the network to cover a larger area forming a web of surveillance, but dont think for one moment that it has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about keeping you or I safe. its not there for our benefit, if any crime preventitive benifit does occur, it'll be due to a minimal deterent factor. it was sold to the public as a big Crime Prevention thing, and its had little effect, so what was the real reason?, and do we actually trust those that know the answer, to give us the truth?, i thinits more to protect the state from the people, than to protect the people from crime.

- Steve, london

I first felt concerned when i got sent ariel photos of myself commiting a very minor driving offence.
Then I was standing on a tube platform at King Cross, heard a camera whiring, following me up and down. Fair enough I thought untill i looked around and there were 5!!! cameras ponting at me, 4 fixed and 1 remote controlled.
If you bear it in mind as you walk around central London, looking for them, you will realise just how silly its getting.

For those of you not from London we also have a ring of cameras recording every vehicle plate going into the greater metropolitan area (a revenue collection scheme called the Congestion Charge)
Add to this that the majority of people use personal electronic travel cards to get around on public transport and we're almost there.

If you run a pub or bar like i do then you wont get a license without cctv, and they've stopped making the crap analogue stuff now.

So with this stat of 1 camera for every 14 citizens, I think we can agree that the cameras are allready in place.
If they pass legislation to 'network' commercial or other cctv for easier police access then it'll be fully fledged Orwellian.......except......

The people running it havent got a bloody clue, they could'nt catch a cold. Its the worlds biggest waste of cash, useless.

Crime, terrorism, no major or even medium sucesses can be attributed to CCTV.

So we, sorry the Government have blown all our money on a system that is useless exept in the wrong hands

- Aharden, London

We need the cameras on the internet. We need the public to become the eyes of crime and report when it happens immedialtley to a mobile device with an image of the crime. Inernet Eyes.co.uk is comming.....

- Peter Sandler, Birmingham

What people do not understand is if you allow these camera's to be everywhere monitoring every place citizen's go just imagine what you will have to put up with in the future? RFID chips inserted into your person to not only GPS your movements but also they will track every transaction you make. Wake Up people before '1984' is here proper!

- James, Victoria Australia

CCTV cameras are used for Parking Offences - not crimes as your figures show
CCTV cameras are being tried out in school class rooms - have they consulted the parents??? I would not allow a camera looking over the shoulder of my children. Once you do allow this to happen - then it will mushroom into something else.
CCTV camera was quite rightly used in the nursing/ care home for the elderly after families where consulted - BUT QUESS WHAT its wrong and against humane rights.
So there we have it put the cameras where they are needed and its wrong. Put them where they are NOT needed and it is right

- Roger Wilson Moore, East Sheen, London SW14

I'm in favour of cameras. Melbourne has a few, here and there. I'd be encouraged by an assurance that they were actually being monitored - and by people who were capable and willing to put a stop to crime.

Once I arrived at a near-empty railway station soon after a young person had been mugged for his wallet. There is a camera at every station and an intercom to someone somewhere. We pressed the intercom button and asked whether the mugging was captured on camera - he said it wasn't. What a waste.

- James Forsyth, Melbourne, Australia

We need to have a regulated use of CCTV in conjunction with officers on the beat. At the moment cameras are being used as a subsitute for police officers and they don't act as a good deterrent either.

- Jeremy Hower, London, Great Britain

They are trying to make a police state, next comes more tax and digital ID cards, oh wait that's after they have filed and saved our DNA in a national database.

I vote for a ban on installing CCTV in public places, leave the ones we have because we spent £200million on them...now what else can we do with them?

10000 cameras is only the begining, next they will want to track you and monitor your every move. Your existence will be recorded and digitized.

Only then will the people fail to use the "I have nothing to hide so why do I care argument." This is a flawed argument and has no reasoning.

Wake up while we still have some free speech left.

- Paul Mayuw, London, UK

One might assume that the cameras serve to deter crime rather than to solve crime. This deterent is only effective when people believe the cameras will lead to being caught in the commission of a crime.

- Zeb Barrett, Toronto, Canada

Imagine if the cameras were not there to begin with...would crime be higher? Quite possibly!

- David Burt, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

The figures obviously do not tell us what the clear-up rate would be without the cameras. The clear-up rate without cameras could very well be a lot lower!

- John Williams, Royal Oak, MI

Why expect the idiots that manage policing,(the Govt), to actually solve crimes? Surely you know that in a fear controlled police state that the statistics are more important. I mean if anyone really cared then they wouldn't have voted these muppets back in.

- Anon, London, England

David Icke is right. These cameras are another reason the once Great UK is Slowly Circling The Drain.

- Craig, Deerfield Beach USA

You do not state the number of crimes, the population, the area and the size of the police force in each borough. Without taking these into account, the comparison by number of cameras is meaningless.

- Anthony Costello, Jefferson, MA, USA

Scotland Yard is trying to improve its track record on the use of CCTV and has set up a special unit which collects and circulates CCTV images of criminals.

Most likely everyone's images will be collected, not just criminals, like they do with DNA samples.

- Suspicious, London

Make every CCTV a Webcam. In fact, require it by law. Why should they have all the fun?

- Julian Bond, Ware, Herts, UK

Sir Robert Peel was right. The Peelian principals still hold be we are still human.
Until police are on the streets, talking with us, earning our trust, they will be remote rule enforcers and unable to deter crime.

- Anon, Philadelphia, USA

I am in the CCTV industry although there are 10,524 cameras in London a lot of these are very old and images on a lot of them are of no use, there is a 21 million pixel camera called sentryscope this is what is required razor sharp images cannot be defended even by the best Barrister, I am amazed that these Boroughs do not emabrace new Technology and continue to buy cameras that are under a million pixels.

- Paul Digweed, Southampton, England

Our first problem is police incompetence. U.S. police solve more crimes becuase police chiefs feel the pain when crime rates increase. U.K. police focus on making people feel better.

Our second problem is police being unarmed. Police make life very dangerous for criminals in the U.S. since any encounter can mean death for the criminal. I doubt this deters crime directly but it means fewer bad role models. European police don't kill that many low level criminals but their armed with ruber bullets, meaning these people get caught more frequently. Stupid low level criminals here escape police just by running. So they commit worse crimes later. And bring more friends into it.

One third problem is banning non-lethal self defence technologies, like peper spray and tassers. How's a woman supposed to defend herself against a bigger male attacker without some equalization? Just allow pepper spray but have using it in a crime very serious, ala knives.

- Joe, London, UK

While not having any idea about the actual effectiveness - but isn't one of the main points of the CCTV cameras to DETER crime...?

Are there any statistics about changes in crime patterns between those places that had lots of CCTV cameras installed compared to those that had very few?

Also, how do the camera figures in the different councils compare when you also take size and population of the boroughs into account, plus figures of how many people from other boroughs 'stream' there on a normal work day?

- Benedikt, London, UK

10,000 people staring at 10,000 monitors...

You've been reading Orwell again, haven't you?

- Sol, CT, USA

The cameras have as much to do with crime prevention as do anti-firearms laws. They are both all about insuring the power of the politicians. Criminals are the politicians bread and butter; more crime equals the need for more laws, which makes for job security for the "law makers." What a wonderful scam.

- Chuck, Florida, US

The very fact that locals without cameras have crime clearance rates the same as the best clearance rate for locations with the cameras, demonstrates that they are a net waste of taxpayers' money. Combine civil liberty and privacy concerns with those numbers and there is no question that the cameras should come down from most locations.

- Robert, Lubbock, TX, USA

Video searches are difficult and time-consuming. I wonder whether victims of a crime could get access to the video tapes to do their own searches?

It might not do any good anyway. In the States, some places won't prosecute minor crimes because they just can't be bothered. Locally, we had a car vandalism case. The person who scratched words into the car paint was caught at the scene while damaging the car and was arrested on the spot. Apparently, even catching a criminal red-handed isn't enough. The police told the victim that night that the man was just going to be released, and the next day the prosecutor's office announced exactly that: the man was released "in the interests of justice" - which means so that the government wouldn't have to hire a lawyer.

- Ita, California, USA

Maybe you should start letting people carry concealed firearms so they can portect themselves. If crooks know they might get shot by a victim they don't seem to be as quick to commit crimes.

- Larry Plank, Rochester, MN, USA

It seems to me that if a criminal is caught via CCTV, the system works and has saved who knows how many crimes due to the fear of being caught on CCTV causing criminals to look for better pickings(i.e. Lessened chances of being caught on CCTV). No data exists for crimes prevented that I'm aware of.

- Encee, Raleigh, NC

The cameras are obviously doing nothing to deter crime and the police are unable to use them to solve crime. Like the old adage says, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

The Brits need to wake up and realize that the only thing that deters a criminal is a potential victim who is able to defend themselves. It has been proven time and again that crime decreases in areas of the U.S. with low gun control where citizens are able to carry concealed firearms for protection. However, crime is higher in areas with more gun control or so called "gun free zones".
Gun control and gun free zones will only disarm law abiding citizens. The draconian gun laws of the UK and Australia prove that banning firearms does not keep them out of the hands of criminals. Cameras do nothing more than invade the privacy of citizens. Wake up my British friends.

- Jason, Virginia, United States

Don't make the mistake of thinking these cameras are there for your protection. They are there to allow general surveillance of the population.
We live in one of the most controlled societies in the world and the cameras, along with things like ID cards, are there to increase the level of control by the authorities on the people. The authorities use fear of crime and the terrorist threat as a smokescreen.

- Grumpy1, Glasgow, Scotland

It sounds as though the system is overloaded. If the folk who put your system into place did not expect this then they are not very good planners. If there is not way of sorting the information it is useless. This is analogous to one’s trying to remember something and not being able to do so. Now that the system is in place I doubt that your rulers will just junk it as a bad idea but that is exactly what they should do. Sell the parts to pay for some training for the police or give you your guns back.

- David W. Loeffler, Grants, New Mexico, United States

Nothing beats bobbys on streets. They are playing with our money. Give the police more staff and put them where we can see them. Then remove all the red tape holding them back and let them actually detect crime. The cameras as part of a bigger picture which will only become clear after the ID cards come in, and dont help in the short term.

- Anna, Nottingham

How many policemen could be hired for £200,000,000.

- Davey, Santa Ana, USA

If citizens had access to the output of these cameras, then they would serve the citizens instead of the government and Julian's fears would be less justified. The government wants our complete trust, even though it has consistently failed to provide security. It would be better to trust the people instead for a change.

- Sammler, London

Very creepy. Way too "1984" for my tastes, glad I don't live there.

- Joel, Atlantic Canada

Well unless these CCTV cameras are loaded with bullets and missle aiming abilities I don't see how they are going to stop crime.

- Mik, London

The 80% unsolved rate is actually at least 90% unsolved. The police themselves admit that half of all crimes, including violent crimes like rape go unreported. Yet self defence is more or less illegal and we are supposed to depend on them for protection...

- Paul, Herts

I'm not the smartest fellow on the planet but it would appear your country has traded liberty for security and lost both. Good luck to all of you - I pray that the few liberty loving people left will restart the engine of growth and liberty that my history books tell me England once was.

- Gregg Scott, New York, United States

Yet another example of how Labour have wasted your hard earned money and stolen yet another chunk of your privacy. I'm sure we'll hear from the "nothing to hide brigade" but the fact is the law state innocent until proven guilty and the government exists to serve the people, not enslave and spy on them. It's time to fight back, the fact that its soon to be, if not already a crime, to deny a council offical entry to YOUR home should be the final straw.

- Dave, London

With a 20% crime solve rate you have to wonder just what the police are doing other than staring at computer monitors.

- Steve, Durham, NC

Film footage is needed for the NEWS channels to heighten the fear level. When you see a street laced with CCTV cameras does it promote a feeling of safety? Of course not.

- Derek Anson, Dagenham

Its a waste of money and barely good enough to catch criminals AFTER they have committed a crime. Put the police on the street, not behind a desk watching monitors.

- Phillip Mckann, London

I'm glad that this step toward a Big Brother society is failing. You only gain security at the cost of liberty. When you disarm the people, then the government needs to go to extreme measures to protect the people that are no longer at liberty to protect themselves but it never works, as this is a case in point.

- Joshua, Boston, USA

Somebody has to watch the cameras. They don't have 10,000 people staring at 10,000 monitors. If you do have something stolen, try to get them to use the camera footage... Only high priority crimes warrant a video search. Too much video footage to go through.

If they actually put people in jail, and kept them there, then they'd have less crime.

- Patrick, Killinghall, UK

..."And the Police are under-funded, under supported and unable to do their job. This statistic does not surprise me at all."

You are joking, surely? The police state is growing ever larger. If they chose to spend their money on useless gadgets rather than human-facing policing then that is their mistake.

Unfortunately they have switched from protecting people to protecting the corporatised state from legitimate opposition.

- Supergran, Hampshire, UK

..."open debate"

Thats a laugh, Nu- liebour don't like open debate just incase it shows that that public opinion and facts disagree with or disprove their spin.

- Dave, London

The cameras are there only to keep tabs on people as a method of control in the future. Big brother is here already, and we paid for it, it's got nothing to do with fighting crime.

- Dan, London

Rip them down, rip them all down, this is just another way for parasites to rip the general public off.

- M S, London

This is a joke: whatever they see or people tell them, the police are nowhere out to be seen...

- Georgie, London

"1984," George Orwell. History repeats itself and yet no one learns.

- Rick A Hyatt, Saratoga, USA

Me thinks there are too many people watching tv screens instead of hitting the street and doing it the old fashioned way.

- Will, Florida, USA

This raises the question of what the cameras are really for.

- Jim Meddle, Melbourne, Australia

So why have the cameras at all? One other thing to consider is that computers are getting better at identifying people by their gait, features and even voice, so how long until that camera network is automated and can watch you 24/7 never missing a beat?

- John, Sacramento USA

200 hundred million pounds all paid by the tax-payer without a single one of us asked for our consent. We should be storming our local Town Halls demanding an explanation as well as a refund. It's amazing how easily our hard-earned cash is squandered.

- Lmd, North London

Policemen on the streets probably would be better.

- Jacqueline, Hampstead, London

It seems they neither prevent crime nor solve crime, at best they record it for the news. Not only that but CCTV cameras are ugly and intrustive, and just a litle bit scary. An invasion of our privacy.

Oh, and I don't want to hear from the "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" mob. If that's what you think then have one in your living room checking if you are eating healthy food, not beating your children etc.

- Julian, London, UK

For CCTV to be effective, people have to worry about being caught, otherwise there is no deterrent. I don't know about anybody else but knowing that whoever had stabbed/mugged/raped me was caught on CCTV is no comfort. I'd much rather that they were stopped in the first place.

- Alan, London

In some areas, many of the cameras originally installed for "public safety" purposes have been put to a far more profitable use. Point them at the road and use them for issuing parking/bus lane/box junction fines. Raises lots of cash with minimum hassle. Why wrestle with knife wielding yobs on the pavement when you can extract an easy £60 - £120 by post from a motorist?

- Bryan Armstrong, London, UK

The street cameras and speed cameras are there to make the public think they are being adequately policed, when such could not be farther from the truth. How many of the Surveillance Camera Control Units are fully manned 24-7? And how many areas of the country where there are warning signs for speed cameras have static cameras in situ, and where not how many Police personnel are employed with hand held cameras. Traffic control is a very low grade response for the Police or they would be investigating every road traffic accident as once was the case. These days bad drivers are hardly touched - too much form filling. Also in terms of street disorder and general crime if the Street Surveillance cameras are so useful and street fights/crimes so commonplace - where are the figures for arrests and court appearances. Strikes me that the powers that be in the Home Office have decided to rely upon static technology without fully researching the manpower implications associated with the efficient maximisation of the schemes. It would actually have been more cost effective just to increase Police Establishments by 40% and have forgotten about the farce of Police Community Support Officers and speed cameras which have only disenchanted a goodly percentage of the public.

- Robert, Kirk Ella, East Yorks

'Owned and controlled by Transport for London' - there is your answer.

- Rick, Londom, England

There are just too many cameras. They no longer prevent crime they just record it for the purpose of evidence.

And the Police are under-funded, under supported and unable to do their job. This statistic does not surprise me at all.

- Stuart, UK

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