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Now two MORE discs containing personal data go missing at bungling Ministry of Mayhem
Last updated at 13:37pm on 22.11.07Child Benefit helpline 0845 302 1444
At least two more discs containing data that could put people at risk of ID fraud have been lost by Revenue and Customs, it has been revealed.
Staff at the tax offices in Washington, Tyne and Wear, said they sent more two unencrypted discs to London but they are unaccounted for.
The discs contained national insurance numbers and dates of birth but unlike the previous two, which were lost from the same office, did not contain bank account details.
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The news comes as it was revealed last night that bungling officials who lost the personal and banking details of everyone who receives child benefit were guilty of more than 2,100 security breaches last year - dragging Gordon Brown to the centre of the shambles.
The revelation lays bare the scale of the incompetence at the heart of the HM Revenue and Customs department, which stretches far wider than the loss of two discs containing the highly sensitive details of 25million people.
Many of the blunders - which date between October 2006 and September 2007 - took place while Mr Brown was still Chancellor, but are only now being made public.
Scroll to the bottom to see the Mac cartoon on the crisis
Last night, Alistair Darling also faced damaging allegations from the Conservatives a "systemic failure" within the department was to blame for the child benefit fiasco - which could be placed at the door of senior officials.
A memo released by Tory MP Edward Leigh revealed the agency which was sent the two discs lost in the post had asked for the sensitive information to be removed, but a decision was taken by a senior HMRC official to ignore the request to save money.
Opposition MPs said the Government's defence - given to Parliament by the Chancellor Mr Darling on Tuesday - that the child benefit bungle was merely the responsibility of a junior civil servant was now in serious doubt.
On a day when Mr Brown was forced to make a public apology for the fiasco, it also emerged that:
•It was claimed that the password for the discs were inside the same package.
•A Government helpline for the public went into meltdown, with callers struggling to get through.
•Worried callers were being charged to ring HMRC's helpline.
•Taxpayers could be made to pay if the discs fall into the hands of criminals because the banks refuse to foot bill for any resulting fraud.
•Warnings dating back as far as 2003 about data handling by Government departments were ignored.
•The Government will not be prosecuted for the shambles by the Information Commissioner.
•Labour MPs want the ID cards project scrapped in the wake of the security fiasco.
As the scandal threatened to engulf the Government, it emerged that the National Audit Office – to which the discs were being mailed as part of an investigation into the payment of child benefit – had asked for sensitive personal information such as bank details to first be removed.
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Chancellor Alistair Darling arrives at the GMTV studios yesterday morning
But a senior business manager at HMRC wrote an email to the NAO – copying in another senior HMRC official – saying they would be sent without being "desensitised" to avoid incurring extra costs.
The revelation, in a letter by NAO boss Sir John Bourn in a briefing paper to Mr Darling, will fuel suspicions that the junior employee blamed for the fiasco is being made a "scapegoat".
The email related to the first time the discs were sent – successfully – to the NAO in March this year, rather than the second time in October when they became lost.
But opponents said it heaped even greater pressure on Mr Darling, who told MPs – in relation to the October blunder – that it was a junior official that took the decision to send the sensitive information, and senior officials were not informed.
Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said: "These startling revelations from the NAO call into question the entire defence mounted by the Prime Minister of this catastrophic failure in his Government. This was systemic failure, not individual error by a junior official."
Figures released to MPs showed there were 2,111 security breaches reported at HMRC last year, including the loss of 41 laptops.
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Among the breaches revealed in a Parliamentary answer – which include letters containing personal details being sent to the wrong people – there are two warranting major probes by the Information Commissioner.
In September this year, a worker reported that his laptop had been stolen from his car – containing thousands of customer details from about 15 financial institutions.
Only a month later, 15,000 Standard Life customers were put at risk of fraud after a courier lost a computer disc containing personal information.
The Government was also rocked by an extraordinary claim that passwords which will unlock the personal details included on the two missing discs could have been included in the missing package.
Officials were forced to deny the allegation, made by a serious fraud solicitor who routinely receives packages from HMRC.
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An apologetic Darling and Shadow Chancellor George Osborne, right, appeared on GMTV yesterday
In the Commons, Mr Brown surprised MPs by offering a rare apology as he faced a barrage of criticism. David Cameron accused the Prime Minister of political cowardice and blamed his leadership of HMRC when he was Chancellor for the fiasco.
Mr Brown tried to calm anxious parents by telling Parliament he has ordered a check on the security of all data held by Government.
Expressions of Government regret began yesterday morning when Mr Darling apologised "unreservedly" for the blunder.
But Mr Cameron accused the Government of failing its duty to protect the public, leaving families "worrying about the safety of their bank accounts and the security of their family details".
And concern spread across Whitehall that other departments could suffer a similar fate. The Home Office was forced to issue a statement defending the £5.5billion ID cards scheme, amid calls from Mr Cameron it should now be halted.
Two senior Labour MPs broke ranks. Andy Love said he had 'major worries' about the ID scheme, a view echoed by Karen Buck, a former Home Office minister.
The warnings ministers ignored
Ministers ignored repeated warnings that the creation of the "monster department" of Revenue and Customs would lead to serious problems.
Gordon Brown, then Chancellor, ordered the merger of Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue two years ago, along with a 5 per cent cut in spending and cuts of 25,000 jobs.
But a committee of MPs, the Institute of Chartered Accountants, the Chartered Institute of Taxation, and unions warned over the past year that the move has led to a "deterioration" in the HMRC's service.
A senior MP said Mr Brown and his ministers must ultimately take the blame for the fiasco as they had ignored the alarm bells.
Michael Izza, chief executive of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, said they had been warning for months of problems since the merger.
"It manifests itself in things like postbags unopened for weeks, it takes over 13 weeks to register a new company for a VAT number," he told Radio 4's Today.
He said the loss of the data appeared to be part of a "wider operational, managerial malaise".
However, referring to the loss of data, Mr Darling said yesterday: "I don't think it was the merger that caused the problem."
Four days lost as the boss 'dithered'
Paul Gray: Swift resignation
Paul Gray was forced to quit after infuriating the Chancellor with his "dithering" response, sources said.
The chairman of Revenue and Customs was praised for offering his resignation after the blunder by his staff.
But last night sources said Mr Darling lost confidence in Mr Gray in the days before the fiasco was made public.
Mr Darling was angry to be told by Metropolitan Police that the data loss was far worse than realised. He was frustrated by the delay before Mr Gray told ministers - and by his failure to order an immediate search.
HMRC officials briefed the media anonymously on what they said were problems inside the department.
Mr Darling told MPs that he was briefed about the crisis on November 10, two days after HMRC's senior management was informed. He ordered a search for the discs but voiced surprise to colleagues that the department had not acted sooner.
He was assured by HMRC that the discs could be found, and waited four days before ordering Mr Gray to call the police.
Perfect scapegoat
The junior IT worker at the centre of the blunder was last night in hiding at a hotel in the North-East where he was being guarded to try to protect his identity from leaking out.
He is said to have been told by a senior manager at the HMRC offices in Washington, Tyne and Wear, to dispatch the compact discs without an explanation on October 18, and was unaware of their importance.
A source said: "He put the discs in the internal post, unregistered and not recorded, and they were taken away by the couriers, TNT. The rest is history.
"He is the perfect scapegoat for management failings. It's awful but he will undoubtedly end up carrying the can for the incompetence of others."
How the discs work
The two missing compact discs are of the standard type used in millions of home computers.
Each could store 650 megabytes - or 650million individual characters or letters.
The information to be stored is first converted into binary code of ones and zeros. A laser then burns a hole into the disc for each 'zero' and leaves a gap for each "one".
Each CD contains millions of these microscopic holes, laid side by side in a spiral which begins at the centre of the disc.
To read the information back, a laser beam is shone on the surface to create a pattern that is converted back into "ones and "zeros and then decoded back to its original format.
Reader views (62)
Looks like the criminals will have our identity cards before we do!
- Paul, Gloucester England, 22/11/2007 21:09
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How did the data end up on the discs in the first place? Is that the way national agencies handle data? I thought all the personal data should be on the secured network. If they were on the discs then they should have all been encrypted.
- Politics Cartoon Lover, London, UK, 22/11/2007 18:59
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These Nu Labor guys need stopping. No more bottling, no more bungling. Where is the NO CONFIDENCE vote?
- Jacqueline, Hampstead, London, 22/11/2007 18:00
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The sad fact is that even after yet another NuLabour foul-up, millions of idiots, including those whose details are 'missing', will continue to vote for them.
- Blind Pugh, Addlestone, UK, 22/11/2007 17:28
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It is precisely because the govt. are in the pockets of the major IT consultancies that we get shoddy systems like this.
And by the way, if a private organisation had systems that weren't interconnected and data could only be transferred by disk, heads would roll!
- John, London, 22/11/2007 17:02
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The scary thing is the man who created this 'super' department and was responsible for it as Chancellor for 10yrs is now in charge of the whole country...Agh! Abandon ship!
- Mark, london, UK, 22/11/2007 16:47
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And the government want to keep tabs of our DNA too?
I was getting a bit worried that we were living in a Big Brother state, but now I can sleep sound in the knowledge that the govt. are so inefficient that the CCTV footage will be lost, the computer systems arent joined up and the data can't be extracted from these systems without it being lost.
Thank you bungling, incompetent govt., my civil liberties remain intact!
- Simon, London, 22/11/2007 16:45
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Look at how the civil servants are dressed at work - what do you expect. They dress like a useless bunch of dossers who sponge off the state for a living because that is what they are.
- Dave Wallis, London England, 22/11/2007 16:03
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Methinks Gordon Brown has a great future behind him!
- Alan Eaves, Buckhurst Hill Essex, 22/11/2007 15:57
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The "Known Known" is that people will make mistakes or will cut corners when under pressure to complete a job. the system design MUST take this into account by building in safeguards such as two people required to authorise a download of sensitive data and a report of this activity to a data security manager. I would couple this with the junior Doctors Database where the Government had completely ignored customer privacy. The worst aspect is that Brown is scapegoating a junior clerk for failings that are his responsibility having run the Dept for a decade.
- Dave, London, 22/11/2007 15:46
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An aspect of this affair which perhaps needs further exploration is the nature of the contractual relationship between HMRC and computer company EDS. It would seem that EDS has more say in the management of our data than HMRC, to whom we are forced to entrust it, and presumably also means that the systems architecture is also in the hands of the company who are not directly accountable to Parliament or people. This seems a very undesirable state of affairs that the Public Accounts Committee ought to pursue. I would like to think that my tax affairs are between me and HMRC with relevant data being held and managed by them, not by a commercial company.
- James Elliott, Eastbourne UK, 22/11/2007 15:26
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This is the banana republic of Britain. You repeatedly voted for it during the past three decades. Stop complaining about consequences.
- Jack, London UK, 22/11/2007 13:48
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If a junior person at HMRC was able to duplicate and post these discs in this manner with nothing to stop him then you can be pretty sure that it has happened before and for malicious purposes. With so few controls in place our data was almost certainly already out there in criminals' hands if you ask me.
- Yvonne Gailey, London, UK, 22/11/2007 13:20
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Why are we blaming Labour exactly? The same sort of thing could easily have happened under a Tory government, who are keen on cutting costs and bureaucracy. The main problem lies in office management and attitudes. These departments need to attract better people to fill the jobs and monitor key tasks very carefully. If this costs more then so be it.
- John H. Evans, London, U.K., 22/11/2007 13:18
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Time to start again. Every body registers again, only this time keep a proper watch out for the fraudsters.
- Bj, London, England, 22/11/2007 13:07
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Hold on a minute, UK financial services are spending a fortune putting in new controls and software to protect the details of their customers, yet the Government just copy vital information to disc and then lose them.
Are we wasting our time and money? Good grief. The buck stops at the top. Darling, you are the weakest link, goodbye. And do us all a favour, take Brown with you.
- Peter M, London, UK, 22/11/2007 12:39
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No-one is mentioning that this means that the names and birthdates of virtually every child in the UK are now potentially in the hands of paedophiles. I find this much scarier than the thought that my own bank account and NI number might have been leaked to fraudsters.
And how hard, I wonder, is it to get a job as a revenue clerk and access the full tax record of anyone once you know their NI number? No harder than it is for an illegal immigrant to get a job as a security guard at a sensitive government site, I'd suggest!
- Nigel, London, 22/11/2007 11:25
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This is the same government that wants to ask everybody entering Great Britian 53 detailed questions, including some bank information.
Let me know how that works out for you guys.
- Gismodo, Tokyo, Japan, 22/11/2007 11:16
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Why can Nu Labor not admit defeat: big government is over for them!
- Georgie, Islington, London, 22/11/2007 09:15
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I've got an idea - why don't we put McClaren in charge of the Treasury and Darling in charge of the England team. They could hardly been more inept in their new jobs than they have been in their current ones.
- Steve Clapham, London, UK, 22/11/2007 07:51
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You're all sheep, Baaaaa. They say they do it for the nurses, hard working families, along with other such nonsense and you all roll over to have your tummies tickled. People who understand this stuff told you something like this would happen, but oh no you all go and vote in Nu Labour, yet again.
Well, now it is past time to start reaping those rewards, and the rewards for stupidity are frighteningly expensive.
You can't say you weren't all warned. No excuses there. None at all.
For they sow the wind, and they reap the whirlwind...
- Threaded, Roskilde, Denmark, 22/11/2007 06:56
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We cannot continue with a PM who has forced through decisions which cause these disasters. Once again Brown has gone against expert advice (as in the case of the raid on pensions) and the people are again paying the price.
This Govt is driven only by self interest and their own personal enrichment - 3rd World practises.
They must go!
- Richard, Battersea, 22/11/2007 05:29
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Er... Just who was it in charge of the Treasury for the past ten years?
- Lezli Taubler, London, 22/11/2007 02:18
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Couldnt agree with all of you more. Its happening here too, mostly from private firms. I heard last week that my bank had someone they employ selling personal info of clients. Hence we all had to go through the hassle of changing accounts, ordering credit reports and putting all sorts of alerts on the accounts. The bank just said "sorry". imagine that. We live in a world where if you aren't a victim of identity theft you are one of the few. Its a major issue all over.
- Dave, NY, USA, 22/11/2007 02:05
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When mommy government runs your lives, this is exactly what YOU get.
- J Kerry, Libsburg US, 22/11/2007 00:52
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This is the problem. More and More Databases. More and more Agents willing to pay large sums of money to companies. Get a clue and encrypt this data, even on CD's. And you have 0% Loss. These data admins must be from an era where non-encrypted data was the norm.
- Blogster, Seattle, WA, 21/11/2007 21:29
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Plus a mandatory knighthood to boot.
- Eric, Herts, 21/11/2007 18:47
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It seems like Nu Labor guys will resign, when their "outplacement" golden parachute packages are paid out. Shame they do not go before.
- Jacqueline, Hampstead, London, 21/11/2007 18:43
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I have become increasingly concerned by the number of people that can access my personal data. Low lifes working for private parking companies can get information from the DVLA. Junior staff in banks, insurance companies, GP practices and NHS Trusts all seem able to access your records from their desktop via their network. I was fairly convinced a few years ago that someone living near me got a junior job in the local branch of my bank and accessed personal financial information. Security in all areas needs tightening immediately.
As for resignations! I assume the head of the HMRC will go with a golden handshake and/or largish pension, and that the head of TNT will not be resigning! Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
- Michael, London, 21/11/2007 13:13
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This so called Government should all decamp and form a circus, after all they already live in a dream world and have no ethics or integrity.
- Jose, Wales, 21/11/2007 12:44
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Why are you advising people to change their pin?
Pin numbers are not requested or expected by any Government Department.
- Jon, London, 21/11/2007 12:38
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Apart from showing them, hopefully once and for all, what a stupid idea a national ID card scheme is I can't see what all the fuss is about.
- John, Dundee, UK, 21/11/2007 12:21
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Perhaps the question that should be asked is why this computer system allowed all of this information to be downloaded on two discs. It may be that numerous unauthorised downloads have occurred in the past and the loss of these discs is just the first time that the holes in the security system have come to light.
- Dan, UK, 21/11/2007 12:15
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I'll be moving my account to Northern Rock!
- Philip, London, England, 21/11/2007 12:04
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This Government has tripped up more times than a three legged man trying to run the 200m hurdles. What a bunch of amateurs.
- Dan, Manchester, 21/11/2007 12:03
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A total disregard of personal data regardless of who is responsible at whatever level of the organisation. I am not surprised as I believe the public sector treats personal information with little respect. All too often we read of information being found on rubbish tips (paedophile lists, medical details etc), computers being left in cars and so on. I am most unhappy that my personal medical history is to be put on a national computer - I have contacted my surgery and the Department of Health to protest.
Whilst, I have supported a national ID card, this latest fiasco means that I am now unhappy with the state holding any information on me. I no longer trust any government department. We are continuously warned about identity fraud, and yet those who warn us are guilty of the most serious breach of our personal information. The CEO has resigned, the board should follow suit. All those with direct management responsibility for the employee responsible should also be sacked. I hope that all top civil servants are quaking in their boots, they are not held to account enough and will be alarmed at this first resignation of a top civil servant.
Finally, I blame the amalgamation of the two departments introduced by the PM when Chancellor. I also blame the PM for not ensuring the proper legal framework vis BoE. FSA etc to oversee financial institutions - Northern Rock. This PM is a disaster, he is leading a government that lurches from crisis to crisis.
- Liz, Lincoln, 21/11/2007 11:56
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Alistair Darling is the Mr Bean or Mr Clouseau of the Government. I've lost track of the jobs he's had over the last 10 years but each one has been memorable only by the mess he makes and the fact that he is so incompetent.
Had this happened in a public company, the directors would have faced prosecution under the Data Protection Act and may have been sent to jail if found guilty.
Darling should be sacked now and the rest of them should start looking for other jobs.
- Adam, Harrow, Uk, 20/11/2007 23:59
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Okay, so my details along with my four childrens details and our bank details have been mislaid?
So, are we able to sue for negligence and the obvious 'failure' of DPA in this instance.
I'm currently having an enquiry on my TAX CREDITS and have been asked for so much information it's a joke - car insurance - home insurance - loan/credit card details etc the list seems endless.
I wasn't comfortable sending it in the first place and I'm certainly not comfortable sending it now.
- Julia, West Midlands, 20/11/2007 23:08
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"Accidents can happen!" A cliche, but nevertheless true!
Rather than rushing to condemn, can't we salute Paul Gray for his exemplary actions, and concentrate on ensuring that such a slip-up should not happen again.
- Trevor Roll, London, 20/11/2007 22:58
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This government's record with any IT project to date has been abysmal as well as prohibitively expensive, but it doesn't appear to matter because it's only the taxpayers who are picking up the tab.
As has been said, these goons couldn't be trusted to run a bath and they're still hell-bent on this crazy national identity card fantasy. They'll make beggars of us all before they're finished
- Lmd, North London, 20/11/2007 22:04
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Even more evidence that the ID card scheme should be dropped.
A government of serial incompetence.
- Richo, Clacton, Essex, 20/11/2007 21:41
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The loss of such intimate data of 25 million people is beyond fiasco; it is an unforgivable disgrace. NuLabour has demonstrated beyond any doubt that it is berefit of competence in any government function.
Can there be anyone, even amongst the "nothing to hide nothing to fear" brigade, that can trust this maladministration with any kind of personal data ever again?
The proposed ID card system and its intrusive database must be scrapped immediately. All those not convicted of any crime must be deleted from the pernicious DNA database and, in future, DNA must only be taken if it is of forensic evidential value in criminal cases.
There is absolutely no way on Earth that our security as a nation can be safe in the hands of a government that can allow such a blunder on this monumental scale. Millions of people have had their financial and identity security seriously compromised by this crass incompetence.
- Keith Lonsdale, Doncaster, 20/11/2007 21:25
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Why hasn't one of the opposition parties (or more precisely opposition members) raised a motion of no confidence on this or any of the other Labour government messes? At least we can then all have a sensible debate, in Westminster, the country and in the media about the total incompetence of the present administration.
- Tom, London, 20/11/2007 19:54
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It's typical of what happens when public services are banana republicanised from the top down. Did anybody expect better?
- Jack, London UK, 20/11/2007 19:26
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Calling the legal profession can we sue?
- Bmc, London, 20/11/2007 18:15
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I think the worry regarding compromised could bank accounts is bad enough but the NI information will aid not only identity fraud in the short term but could also affect pension documentation and entitlement in the future - this is truly catastrophic.
- Diana Newman, Canterbury UK, 20/11/2007 18:04
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Why can't they simplify things? If we had a decent tax system we wouldn't need all these people who are treating our data like an old kleenex. Why do we have the credit system in place and why are bank details held on the same system as the one holding benefit details? Get back to basics, get people out of the tax trap so they don't need support from HMRC, the system is not fit for purpose.
Have the tax credit details gone missing too? What if it happened to all the poor souls who depend upon their disability benefits, pensions and anything else we have been persuaded to have paid directly into our bank accounts?
If it got into the hands of someone unscrupulous with a life office agency they could enter all the personal details into an online life insurance system, get the commission and do a runner before the account holders discovered there was a monthly premium being taken. Identity theft is only part of the problem, but it is absolutely horrifying. What a shambles of a government, and 99% of them are Scottish, renowned for their 'prudence'...
- Evan Owen, Harlech UK, 20/11/2007 17:42
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These Nu Labor guys need going!
- Jacqueline, Hampstead, London, 20/11/2007 17:07
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Paul Gray resigns immediately but Alistair Darling blames junior officials. Never mind the shambles all around him, Darling's a New Labour man through and through so he'll desperately cling on in the vain hope of keeping his power, pay and perks.
- Ian, London, 20/11/2007 17:02
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I thought there was something afoot when I sent a letter to HMRC in September asking why I had not heard back in regard a refund on a tax form that I filed in May. I didn't get a reply for a month, and when I did, it simply stated that the form that I sent in May had been mislaid and could I please send a copy. I thought that it was odd that they had no record, since I had sent not just one form in May but a second corrected version as well. If they had lost both, I suspected that my whole HMRC file had been lost.
Now it's obvious that in fact my whole tax file has been lost, along with 7 million others. This is so incredibly shocking as to defy belief. Does Gordon Brown actually think that he will be staying in power for another two years?!?! There will be rioting in the streets first! This has to be the most incompetent government in the whole recorded history of the U.K.
- Phil Jones, London UK, 20/11/2007 16:52
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Please do the decent thing and resign today, taking with you Jacqui Smith and Ian Blair.
- Tom, St. Albans, 20/11/2007 16:35
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..."a junior member of staff sent the discs, unrecorded and unregistered, by courier firm TNT".
1. So it was actually a private sector courier firm that lost them. Is its boss resigning?
2. Surely anything sent by courier is tracked from start to finish?
- Tonyb, Twickenham, 20/11/2007 16:34
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What a plonker... more hassle for Joe Public.
- Jim Moore, Belfast, 20/11/2007 16:33
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It is just cock up after cock up with 'Nu Multi-Everything Labour'.
- Frank, Home Counties, England, 20/11/2007 16:28
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Great, so organised crime now has 25 million NI numbers matched with our names, addresses, and bank details. (Take that as read, they wouldn't have said anything if it weren't too serious to be hushed up). Imagine what it would be like if we were all in a central ID registry, and our national ID number was the key to every other detail of our lives, which an NI number, thankfully, isn't.
ID cards? Just say NO! Once your data is lost and copied, it can never be reclaimed.
- Nigel, London, 20/11/2007 16:28
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"I am in a state of shock. Someone has resigned! Take note Darling.
- Bill, London"
Take note Ian Blair, even.
- Md, London, 20/11/2007 16:07
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These are the people who want us to have Identity Cards. This government couldn't run a bath.
- Maura Casey, London, UK, 20/11/2007 15:41
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Goodnight Darling!
- Ian, London, 20/11/2007 15:00
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The current government think that the British people are a load of fools, Darling has to go from his post, ministers have known about the loss of this data for 10 days according to reports and the man at the top is responsible. He must be a right wally to try and cover this up after the Northern Rock fiasco. Total shambles.
- Gary H, Putney, 20/11/2007 14:45
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So as we can see our ID card information will be carefully looked after by the state! Imagine the scenario, that a government department loses a disk with all British ID information on it. Utter chaos would commense. The security needed to protect this kind of specific information is too expensive and unworkable. This latest loss of data just proves the point that we should not contemplate building these kinds of intrusive databases after all who do they benefit - not the UK citizen.
- Malcolm, London, 20/11/2007 14:23
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Let's not make Mr Gray a scapegoat. 'Substantial operational failure' means employees not doing what they have been told to do either in standing operating procedures or by a direct instruction. The reason they don't is that they know that (European inspired) Employment Legislation makes it very difficult to get rid of them for these failings. The concept of summary dismissal in the public sector is now all but unusable as the cost in time and effort of responding to a charge of unfair dismissal is now so onerous as to allow employees to believe that they are bullet proof and the trifling failure to carry out a petty instruction carries no real risk of sanction at all.
- Peter Haldane, London, 20/11/2007 14:03
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I am in a state of shock. Someone has resigned! Take note Darling.
- Bill, London, 20/11/2007 14:00
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