Morning:
20°c
Johnny Depp has become, in his young middle age, like a star of the movies’ golden period
Secret deal hatched by News of the World to hush up details of phone-tapping was sealed in a tiny room at the Royal Courts of Justice
More...
Now MPs want to ditch 500-year oath of allegiance to the Queen
Last updated at 17:17pm on 08.08.08
HM Queen Elizabeth II at the state opening of Parliament
A group of MPs are campaigning to scrap their traditional oath of allegiance to the Queen, the Mail can reveal.
The declaration has been sworn by those joining or returning to Parliament for more than 500 years.
But 22 MPs from all three main parties say their 'principal duty' should be to represent the people who voted for them - not the monarch.
They want the Commons and the Lords to be allowed to swear allegiance to their 'constituents and the nation' instead.
The unofficial campaign yesterday triggered uproar among royalist MPs - one of whom said the change would amount to ' constitutional vandalism'.
It is also likely to cause dismay at Buckingham Palace.
Former Tory party chairman Lord Tebbit said: 'This seems to me to be an attack upon the State itself. The monarch is the one embodiment-of the State which is outside the political, partisan process.
'The people behind this campaign must either oppose the idea of anyone who is non-partisan having a role in the affairs of state, or they would rather be swearing allegiance to Brussels.'
Since the Middle Ages, all MPs and peers joining or returning to Parliament have been compelled to swear allegiance to the monarch of the day.
The wording has been much amended over the centuries, but currently reads: 'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.'
Atheists are allowed to replace the religious element by saying that they 'solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm' their allegiance.
All MPs and peers must take the oath in the Commons before they are able to take their seats and draw their salaries.
Anyone who attempts to take part in Parliamentary proceedings without having sworn the oath risks a £500 fine for every 'offence' and can eventually be stripped of their seat.
In recent years, a number of Labour ministers and backbenchers have staged protests against the convention.
The former Labour Sports Minister, the late Tony Banks, famously crossed his fingers as he read out the pledge of allegiance. Labour MP Dennis Skinner was heard adding the words 'and all who sail on her' under his breath after promising to be faithful to Elizabeth II.
The late Tony Banks swears allegiance to the Queen, with his fingers firmly crossed
John Prescott, the former Deputy Prime Minister, was said to have deliberately mumbled the words.
Now a coalition of Labour and Lib-Dem MPs - and a single Conservative - have signed up to the extraordinary campaign to reform the practice.
They are demanding an alternative Parliamentary oath allowing MPs to 'swear allegiance to their constituents and the nation and to pledge to uphold the law, rather than one pledging personal allegiance to the serving monarch'.
Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, who is spearheading the campaign, said: 'This is a matter of democracy. I'm put here by my constituents and it's to them I owe my allegiance. Taking the oath to an unelected person is a nonsense.'
Mr Baker said that Justice Secretary Jack Straw had told him he needed to demonstrate backing from MPs before any reform would be considered.
He added: 'I'm pleased by the support this change is getting. It's a debate we need to have about modernising our activities.'
Former Tory Transport Minister Peter Bottomley said he supported any proposal to make the oath voluntarily. 'We need to make the oath something that people are offered, rather than required to take,' he added. 'We should make provision for republicans or separatists.
'I wouldn't drop the oath - I would make it optional. I am a subject of the Queen even more than I am a citizen of this country. I'd much prefer a bad monarchy to a good president.
'But people ought to be able to come to Parliament and argue that they don't want the monarchy.'
So far, 22 MPs have formally backed the campaign, despite a convention that the monarch must not be criticised in the Commons.
And Mr Bottomley, MP for Worthing West, said he believed a majority would vote for reform if given the chance.
'The Government should say, "Let's have a debate, hear the arguments and see if there's a majority against changing the oath",' he said. 'I don't think there would be.' Glasgow North's Labour MP Ann McKechin, a republican, said the alternative oath would enable the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, the abstentionist Sinn Fein MPs, to take their seats in the House of Commons.
'We should have an alternative procedure,' she said. 'There is an increasing number of people who find it difficult to support a monarch in terms of taking an oath.
'Parliament is based on the service we do to our constituents. Now that devolution in Northern Ireland is up and running, there is an issue as to how we can try to bring those Sinn Fein members into the chamber.'
She added: 'The oath to the Queen is awkward for them. It's their choice, but their constituents don't get a fair deal as their MPs don't sit in the chamber.'
Lady Boothroyd, the former Speaker of the Commons, has also backed calls for modernisation, claiming 'a lot of members' object to the declaration in its current form.
But Lord Tebbit yesterday launched a furious attack on the MPs behind the campaign.
'If something has worked satisfactorily for the past 500 years, as the oath of allegiance has, the fact that a silly group of people at the beginning of the 21st century think they know better seems to me to be a very dodgy proposition,' he said.
Geoffrey Cox, Tory MP for Torridge and West Devon, added: 'This is an act of uncomprehending constitutional vandalism. The Queen is the centre of the British constitution.
'To remove her from the Parliamentary oath taken by Members of Parliament is a covert attempt to republicanise our constitution.'
'It's so hypocritical to have to pretend to swear allegiance to the Queen when we've already sworn allegiance to our expenses!'
MPs backing reforming the oath of allegiance to the Queen
Conservative Party:
Bottomley, Peter
Labour Party:
Austin, John
Campbell, Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Clapham, Michael
Davidson, Ian
Flynn, Paul
Iddon, Brian
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Lynne
McCafferty, Chris
McKechin, Ann
Purchase, Ken
Simpson, Alan
Liberal Democrats:
Baker, Norman
George, Andrew
Goldsworthy, Julia
Hemming, John
Horwood, Martin
Oaten, Mark
Swinson, Jo
Social Democratic and Labour Party:
McDonnell, Alasdair
Reader views (33)
Here's a sample of the latest views published.
Here Here
I recently pointed this out to a Jewish gentleman who soon changed his anti-monarchist comments after I'd pointed out a potential alternative he'd obviously not considered.
- Mr Davis, Stepney, London
MPs from all three parties, maybe? 98% Labour and Liberals MPs calling for this would be more accurate and further evidence of their anti British stance. They blame the BNP for not flying our flag above their government / council buildings saying that this party "hijcked" the flag, I beg to differ, as it might be the only party proud to fly our national flag.
- Brandon Thomas, London SW7
Why should MPs swear allegiance to the Queen? They're in Parliament to represent the people, not the monarch.
- Charlie, Soho, London
We should think long and hard about any decision to remove the pledge of allegience to the Queen because as somebody once said HM Queen is not there for the power she holds but the power she denies others. Perhaps this is their reason for undermining her presence. I for one would rather get rid of the MPs whose scandalous behaviour and idiotic decisions has brought this once great country to its knees. Our troops are giving their lives for Queen and country with very little help from these MPs. Lets have a referendum and an election while we're at it.
- Ann Larkins, Redruth, Cornwall.
What a great idea, get rid of everything that makes you 'England' and different and then you can rename the country to 'New America'.
- Tracy M, Australia
Can you still be executed for treason in this country?
- Claire, London
I had thought that in a modern constitutional monarchy the queen is the representative symbol of the state and its people whom MPs are meant to serve - so what is this about exactly - I guess its the continuing disregard for our constitution and this countries citizens which is being surplanted by party political opportunism and nothing to do with republicanism, a debate that is both welcome and necessary if like me we want to be continued be represented as a nation by a monarch rather than a politician.
- Rupert Houghton, London
Great !
MPs need to be aware who they represent AND serve, perhaps we can look forward to the day when the likes of rapacious traffic wardens, speed cameras, rubbish collection 'fines' and assorted oppressive rules really do go into histories' dustbin along with caning in schools for being poor at latin and national service.
They might also work on insane house prices, the NHS, crap street signs, better pensions for the needy and trim their own expenses, though that last demand may be to much for them.
- Frank H., London.
I would have liked to have their names published and give them the peace of my mind. I wonder how many of them are Lefty Loonies? What is this country coming to?
- Surj, London UK
Its hard to see how the Monarchy fit into the 21st Century, other than being an extension of some kind of old world Disney theme park freak attraction that is good for tourism, but has little real meaning, other than for relatives and hangers on, who get married or divorce or do something that Hello magazine, will pay millions for. As someone who is 54 millionth in line for the throne I would say, consign 500 years of bloody history to the proverbial 'hole in the ground'.
- Bondy, Spain
Remarkable news - democratically elected and also deselected!
- Fred, southampton hants
Why don't these 22 MPs resign their seats and and see what "the people" think ? Doubt it, they are too busy getting their snouts back in the tough! I'd much rather the Queen run this country than a bunch of greedy, lazy MPs with nothing better to do. How many of these 22 MPs voted to keep their expenses concealed from the public?
- Joe, London
Very fitting as nobody in Westminster seems to believe in anything anymore. The Queen is the one constant, non-partisan sign of state and as such is at the centre of our society. Would people rather have a President representing Britain? Imagine Blair/Brown being the image that the world has of us as a society... not very flattering.
- Mark, London, UK
I am not particularly a monarchist but I would certainly trust the Royal family when it came to common sense decisions more than the current money grabbing, self-interested, finance fiddling scum we currently have in Parliament. Do we really want to give these cretins more power? Even symbolically? Look what they've done to the country already with their petty power plays.
Mikko talks about the Royal family being unprincipled, selfish and unelected. Parliament fits two out of the three of those, and given its happy refusal to meet election mandate promises, isn't doing that well on the third. Kitty seems to think that the Royal family can't even dress themselves, what utter nonsense. The Royal family are much more involved in ordinary life than they have ever been - whether as organic producers or members of the armed forces.
This is just a diversionary tactic of a failing Govt.
- Spike, Bucks
'As far as the Queen's constitutional status, her rapid signing off on the Lisbon Treaty that Brown plunked in front of her on short notice showed that she no longer considers that she has the power to stand in the way of anything that the Government does -- '
Phil Jones
No because who holds the purse strings? That's all she's bothered about, keeping the people with the money 'on-side'
- Republican, London
If you they don't want a Queen they can go and live in a country that doesn't have one. Long live the Queen.
- Gareth, London
It is official....this entire country is bonkers! Say what you like about the monarchy but it is ours! Remove the connection between the government and the monarchy and we lose the one hope of removing this corrupt regime. All this will do is give unelected politicians total control in a place they don't even belong.
- Charlie, london
Our troops are being killed abroad, children are killing each other with knives and guns, our economy is on the slippery slope to recession, we have a lame duck as a PM a collapsing housing market and the rocketing fuel costs.
Would the 22 MPs who wish to waste tax payers money on such meaningless & trivial debates please resign so that representatives can be found who can concentrate on the more pressing issues of the day.
As for the principal of a monarchy flying in the face of democracy... sorry luv but true democracy was *******ized in this country a long long time ago.
- Roger, London UK
So their principal duty is to represent the people who voted for them. Is this something that happened yesterday? How can they represent us if they do not ask us to vote on issues such as ratifying the EU's Lisbon Treaty. We have such porous borders that they do not know who the people they are supposed to be representing are living next door to and neither do they care. Representatives from all three parties - well who are they? Step up to the plate!
- Patricia, LONDON
The concept of monarchy flies in the face of democracy. It's about time something changed: either their role so that it becomes more like the remaining monarchies of Europe where they actually have jobs or in their complete removal. MPs have a duty to their country, not to a monarch. I don't understand how people can support or be willing to fight to protect people who actually cannot wipe their own! Without help, need help dressing several times a day etc. Hardly something to aspire to and is completely discordant with our values.
- Kitty, London
Time to get rid of the queen and the rest of her parasitic family; they can live out their lives as ordinary common folk like you and me and their assets should be taken by the State (ie. us). At least beggars are usually thankful when you give them something but the royal family is like a bunch of benefit scroungers on an ecstasy trip and has been for generations.
I would never pledge allegiance to such an unprincipled selfish and unelected mob.
- Mikko Takala, Drumnadrochit, Scotland
As far as the Queen's constitutional status, her rapid signing off on the Lisbon Treaty that Brown plunked in front of her on short notice showed that she no longer considers that she has the power to stand in the way of anything that the Government does -- even if it involves giving away large amounts of U.K. sovereignty. The way that the constitution is supposed to work is that the Government 'advises' the Monarch on new legislation, which she can then sign or not. By custom she has not objected to any such legislation -- on the basis that the Government are the people's elected representatives and therefore are doing what the people wish. The Queen's position is to ensure that the Government of the day is not doing anything beyond its powers or acting improperly. She is not part of the Government. In her 56 years on the Throne, the Queen never faced anything similar to the Lisbon Treaty ratification. No prior legislation involved devolution of sovereignty. The Lisbon Treaty is different. It involves devolution of sovereignty in 61 fields, with majority voting outside the U.K. resulting in Brits having to act in ways that they have no say over. The Lisbon Treaty ratification bill was legislation that the Government did not have the power to pass without the people's consent -- and the Queen should have demanded that the people have a say. Although a lifelong monarchist, I am no longer. The Queen's failure on the Lisbon Treaty has changed my view.
- Phil Jones, London UK
If the MPs were all for the interests of the people who voted for them, they would be out in their constituencies fixing the problems and chatting with the citizens, they wouldn't be concerned about petty wording of archaic ceremonies....
- Kate, london
Although the monarch may not have any power, it is a good thing that MPs are subordinate to the monarchy, even if only symbolically. MPs repeatedly prove, most recently in the context of their expenses, that they regard themselves as above ordinary people. Their arrogance needs to be kept in check and being required to swear loyalty to the monarch is one way of doing this.
- Simon, london
I don't think the days of the Queen are over. I must be a royalist because talk of deposing our Queen makes my blood boil and I'd be willing to fight to protect her status (what little she has left). I certainly wouldn't be willing to protect any MP, let alone an MP as a President. What a horrific thought. I think I'm going to have to have a lie down.
- Isabel, woking
Good, it's about time we ditched monarchy as most other European countries have, I'm not suggesting we follow the French or Russians but a simple deposing would suffice.
- Louis Quatorze, London
The days of the Queen are over. She is no more than a tourist attraction for a country that's lost all it's dignity and respect. Why should MPs swear their allegiance to the Queen anyway? She has absolutely no influence on day to day issues no matter what we may think.
Unfortunately, Labour run the show!
- Steve, London
In case these MPs have forgotten, the Queen is still Head of State, so of course they should continue to swear allegiance to her.
I wish they would stop trying to jump on the fashionable bandwagon of hating monarchy and just get on with their jobs of sorting out the economic and social mess this country is in. That's really how they can actively represent the people voted for them!
Crossing fingers and muttering additional things under your breathe? How childish. Its little wonder we have such a problem with teenage attitudes of disrespect when the elected elite act this way.
- Smb, London, UK
Summer madness, another clever piece of spin to distract from the other pressures we are under.
- Ian Makin, Twickenham
Name and shame and they will not be elected again. Most of them do not help their constituents anyway, just want the glory and expenses.
- Anon, UK
Have these MPs no sense of history? What a sad state of affairs in Britain these days. Round 'em up send 'em to the Tower and off with their 'eds .
- Bill, edison usa
With knife crime raging one would think there are more pressing issues for Parliament than worrying about an oath of allegiance!
- Mark, Hong Kong
It's no surprise to see that those MPs who felt unable to make the pledge in good faith didn't think of not taking their seat. How else would they get their nose in the trough.
Just think - We could have avoided the years of having to listen to Tony Benn and Tony Banks spouting absolute nonsense.
- Ian Gilbertson, Newcastle
