Peter Wheeler captained England to a 15-9 win over
New Zealand at Twickenham on 19 November 1983, and it was the first England match covered by Evening Standard rugby correspondent
Chris Jones. Wheeler, now Leicester's chief executive, current England skipper Steve Borthwick and Jones met at Twickenham to look
back on the 25th anniversary of that famous victory . . .

Chris Jones: Peter, here we are at the scene of your great triumph against New Zealand in 1983. I suspect your preparations for that game were very different to what Steve's will be this week ahead of Saturday's game with the All Blacks.

Peter Wheeler: Definitely, we used to meet up at Thursday lunch time and trained in the afternoon and had a Friday morning run. That was it, even against New Zealand.

Steve Borthwick: That's all the preparation you had for a for a Test?

PW: Well, that wasn't the full extent of the preparations, because guys like John Carleton and Dusty Hare would pop down to the Rose of York pub just below the Petersham Hotel in Richmond for a quiet beer on the Friday night.

I had played the All Blacks in Midlands colours 10 days before and so we were able to have a crack at them and actually got a win, which gave us the belief we could do it again for England. The big difference now, Steve, is that you play the All Blacks up to three times a year.

CJ: Does playing the Kiwis so often reduce the importance of this Saturday's game?

PW: The All Blacks, in those days, would only come over here every four years and there was no World Cup. So they did have a real aura about them which I don't think is the situation now because they are here so often.

SB: I disagree. I don't think the aura around the All Blacks is ever diminished and any time you get the opportunity to play for your country is a massive honour, especially at Twickenham.

CJ: Yes, but what really made 1983 special was a win over the All Blacks was so rare.

PW: Correct. The previous victory at Twickenham had been in 1936 [13-0] and I remember meeting their captain Bernard Gadney at the post-match dinner. I had never met him but we had a great night.

CJ: Do you both remember your international debuts?

SB: I was 21 when I played against France and I can't really remember that much about it. After winning your first cap these days you have to sing on the bus after the game. My song was You've Lost That Loving Feelin, and certain traditions will always remain.

Things may change and playing four games back-to-back here means you have to manage yourself really carefully. The margins in international rugby are so fine that you have to maximise every opportunity. The current series has been a very important learning experience for the squad.

PW: My first cap was memorable because of the actual cap. Like Steve, my first game was against France but the cap I was given didn't turn up at my house until nine months later. I came home one day and found it in a brown package on the doorstep because it wouldn't fit through the letter box.

CJ: Steve do you envy the anonymity that Peter had when he was captain? Being able to go out for a beer without attracting any attention?

SB: I was very fortunate to have joined Bath in 1998 at a time when there were a huge number of players who had come from the amateur era and moved into the professional game.

They taught me a lot of important values about how to behave and what is really important to keep in the sport. I was 18, just out of school, and mentored really well.

PW: Everything has to be more serious these days. We weren't paid but had lots of fun. I was an insurance broker in 1983, trained a couple of nights a week at Leicester.

There are massive differences comparing my time to what Steve and his players deal with now and I am not just talking about the preparation time, sports science input, technological support and media demands.

The England players earn every penny they are paid and I have no problem with that. It was very different in 1983. For example, I had broken my thumb hitting one of the All Blacks in the Midlands game and needed the hand taped up for the Test match. I eventually went into hospital for an operation.

CJ: And what about this weekend? What are your predictions for Saturday?

PW: England are going to find it very tough. New Zealand have this knack of producing fantastic touring teams and this one is no different but if anyone can inspire the team it is manager Martin Johnson.

SB: We are determined to end this autumn series on a high and I can promise this England team will be giving it their all to beat the All Blacks at Twickenham on Saturday.