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We can't shoot to wound
Justin Davenport, Crime Correspondent09.06.08
Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair today defended the actions of police firearms officers in the wake of the Markham Square shooting, saying the idea of being able to "shoot to wound" was "fiction".
Barrister Mark Saunders was killed by marksmen at his £2.2million flat in Chelsea after firing a shotgun at passers-by and police.
The 32-year-old fired his gun from the windows of his home into neighbouring houses after apparently going on a drinking session in the middle of the day.
There were questions over the shooting after it emerged that he had suffered five gunshot wounds and a total of nine marksmen had opened fire.
Mr Saunders's parents, Rodney and Rosemary, asked why it had not been possible for police to bring the 6 May siege to a peaceful end.
One firearms expert told the Evening Standard that police should explore a new policy in armed standoffs to allow trained snipers in certain situations to wound a gunman before capturing him.
Today Sir Ian said the idea that you could shoot someone in the arm to disable them was not practical. He said: "The idea of being able to shoot to wound is fictional. For a start if you shoot someone in a limb it does not stop them using the other limb to shoot back.
"You are only going to be shooting at somebody who is shooting at you who is posing an immediate threat to you or someone else."
He also dismissed an idea of pouring some kind of gas into the house which would knock out the gunman. "This is just not in our armoury," he said, comparing the plan with the disastrous Russian police operation at the Beslan school siege which ended with the deaths of 331 people.
The Markham Square incident is now being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
Sir Ian's comments came as it emerged Mr Saunders's devastated family has hired a leading civil rights lawyer to challenge the police version of events.
His wife, Elizabeth Clarke - also a divorce lawyer - has hired the solicitor Jane Deighton to act for the family during the IPCC inquiry into his death.
Ms Deighton has a "formidable" reputation for winning battles against the police. She represented Duwayne Brooks, the sole witness to the murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence, when he complained about his treatment by police. He was awarded £100,000 compensation.
Sir Ian said he could not comment in detail on the shooting because of the inquiry.
But he emphasised that it was extremely rare for police firearms officers to fire their weapons.
He said: "The Met is called to about 10,000 suspected firearms incidents every year and in the 12 months before Markham Square the Met fired three shots. This is not a gung-ho operation.
"We do not shoot very often but if someone is shooting at us or at other people then the chances are that someone is going to fire back.
"We have to make sure that that level of 10,000 incidents and three shots is maintained. But what we cannot do is to guarantee that somebody who is posing a immediate threat to life is not going to be shot if they continue to do that."
The IPCC said it had established there were three separate exchanges of gunfire between Mr Saunders and various police officers surrounding the property he shared with Ms Clarke, 40.
Mr Saunders was fatally injured after the third exchange.
Specialist teams stormed the flat and found the barrister wounded. Attempts were made to revive him but he died at the scene.
Reader views (15)
Messrs Winsley & Adamski - its very easy to delude yourself about your alleged skills in the cosy confines of a shooting range. Now do it when the target is firing back. Forgotten Hungerford, Dunblane, and the Thames Valley incident recently - where police were criticised for not acting robustly enough? This whole story is a nonsense.
Bloke with gun shooting up street. Bloke refuses to surrender, bloke gets shot. Thank god no innocent people died, unlike the 7 people stabbed to death in Japan the other day by someone else with issues. If he'd come out onto the street it would have been carnage, and the police-haters on this board would have criticised the police for not acting sooner.
I'd love to read the extensive list of police forces that "shoot to wound", with copies of their official wounding policies.
- Tony, London, UK
Sir Ian has finally admitted that the Police have a policy of "shoot to kill" which means he condones murder by the police placing them above the law. I believe that only a judge should give the order to pull a trigger. At least we respect our judiciary. I cannot believe that a marksman is unable to shoot to wound or that a gunman with a shotgun with a barrel longer than 24" ie not sawn off could be threat to the Police who carry body armour and visors and therefore not in any danger. Why then did they need to kill a demented barrister in Markham.
- Alexis Dogilewski, London, England
It really does amaze me how people who shoot at apples and in nice safe target ranges suddenly become experts in how to save people's lives in the face of somebody shooting at them. This is not 24. This is not Die Hard or Bond. This man in his tragic state was opening fire on civilians as well as police officers. The ONLY priority is to prevent loss of life as far as possible. Of course the police's first response would be to see if they could talk this man round (I think 3 shots in 10,000 incidents backs this up), but the reality is if somebody is shooting at civilians then the police are going to shoot back to reduce the risk. The tests and training to become an Authorised Firearms Officer in the police are rigorous and I think for once I would like to be the rare person that congratulates the police for the hard work they do in keeping us safe. It's appreciated.
- Anon, London, UK
It seems that the only professional qualification you need to be an expert in the police use of firearms these days is to say that you are one. This whole argument about 'shooting to wound' was started by a so-called 'expert' who has never even been trained as an armed police officer let alone taken part in a police armed operation. It is therefore hardly surprising that he has got it wrong (again). No police force in the world trains its officers to 'shoot to wound' under the circumstances of this incident. Would you print the views of someone with a first aid certificate who tells you that a surgeon is wrong in the way he performs his operations? The real experts are out there 24/7 trying to keep us all safe.
- Mike Waldren, Harrow
The UK police need to fundamentally revise their training and start listening to civilian marksmen. For a start, throw away the 9mm Heckle and Koch carbines and ditch the kevlar-cowboy look. The H&K has poor accuracy and lousy knock-down power. Go back to manually operated precision rifles and put some effort into marksmanship. I can hit an apple at 200 years with every shot. If our police can`t go that, they should not be trusted with any firearm. Most foreign police forces are trained to wound. We should not allow the British Police to act as executioners. Sir Ian Blair should take note.
- Simon Adamski, London, UK
I used to train with FOs many years ago. I used to use 100 times more ammo than the certified firearms officers. This guy was firing buckshot (SA police fire this at rioters with little affect) and could have been talked out by his wife/family given time to sober up. You can shoot to wound if you are calm and in control. It took nine “marksman” who only hit him five times, and it was only a arterial shot that lead to his death. Sir Ian has been spun a line by officers who want to CYA. There are numerous accounts of gunman being disabled by marksman in the States.
- Martyn, London, UK
The greatest danger to the public comes from the armed police themselves.
- 45govt, Barbados
Dear Mr Winsley,
Please explain how you are qualified to make this statement?
I guess you are a brave individual who has had firearms training and severed the community, however then again I am more inclined to believe that you are an armchair expert that is very quick to sully the name of those who put themselves in harms way in order to protect the public against dangerous lunatics with firearms.
Grow up.
- Nick, London
Sir Ian Blair is talking complete rubbish. As an expert shot and experienced marksman, I can certainly shoot to wound. With modern optical and laser sights it is easy to place a bullet within one inch of the desired aiming point. The problem with British police is a wrong training attitude, in which only the centre of the body is targeted. Secondly, the choice of a 9mm carbine is a poor one with minimal stopping power and poor accuracy. More worryingly, this requires repeated hits to bring a man down. Lastly, the London Met need to get rid of the silly balaclavas. You can`t shoot accurately while wearing one and it makes British plod look like South American death squads. We cannot allow our police to act as extra-judicial executioners. It`s time to put a stop to armed police on our streets and outside public buildings.
- Simon Dewolf, Auckland, New Zealand
The police use of firearms is so inept that they should not have access to even toy guns. The police keep stating that their police firearms personal are 'MARKSMEN'. Well Army snipers are MARKSMEN and they can place a bullet exactly where they want it. Therefore the police are not MARKSMEN but inept COWBOYS
Take the guns out of their inept hands and let civilians do a better job! To hell with further police lies.
- A.Winsley, London, England
The headline should read "We can't shoot for toffee".
What do you expect when you arm a bunch of trigger happy sociopaths?
- Jimbob, Kensington
Whilst I feel for his family, the fact is he had a gun and was shooting indiscriminately.
I only hope common sense prevails, preventing thousands more pounds of wasted taxpayers money.
- Scott, Scott
The police can't shoot or are unable to shoot safely. They are a hazard to themselves and to members of the public.
On shooting ranges their ability to hit the target, is measured in No. of hits per box's of ammunition.
Most of the police with guns prance around and play idiots with them.
They are the last persons to be entrusted with firearms, in relation to their limited training.
- A.Winsley, London. England
Why is this even an investigation, because Mark Suanders was a barrister? I am sure if this was an every day person there would be no remorse. The facts remain he was firing at innocent members of the public and he had to be stopped before he killed someone. This person made a series of bad decisions that led to his death, to blame the police is simply moronic.
- Brandon Thomas, London UK
Maybe more questions should be aimed at the individual who drank such a huge amount of alcohol and as a result of this drinking binge and because of malice and anger decided to shoot as many innocent members of the public as he could.
The idea that Police can shoot to wound is a fiction held by Liberal Defence lawyers and the regular viewers of Western movies.
- Alastair Adams, Worcester Park, Surrey
