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Commuters face losing their direct Thameslink route to City
Aline Nassif14 Oct 2008
THOUSANDS of commuters in south London face having their direct rail link to the City severed, campaigners claimed today.
The first stage of a consultation on plans to modernise Thameslink, which runs north-south through the capital, is due to close next week.
Plans include cutting direct services into the City from the "Wimbledon loop".
The proposal is buried in two paragraphs of the 160-page consultation document, published in March.
The move would mean thousands of passengers who board at stations including Streatham, Tooting, Mitcham, Wimbledon, South Merton and Sutton would no longer have a direct link to City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras and stations beyond.
Instead, their services would terminate at Blackfriars from 2015, forcing them to change trains if they wanted to continue. Passengers fear it would add about half an hour to journeys from the Wimbledon Loop.
The other branch of Thameslink in south London, which serves East Croydon and London Bridge, will still run through Blackfriars and go direct into the City. The changes are part of a huge upgrade of Thameslink to accommodate larger, 12-carriage trains.
A Facebook group has been set up called Save our South West London Thameslink Services. Chuka Umunna, Labour Party parliamentary candidate for Streatham, called consultation a "sham", saying: "The proposals are unacceptable. They will have a huge effect on thousands of residents. In Streatham alone two million journeys were made last year into the City.
"Thameslink provides the only direct route for train users from south-west London to the City and beyond that could now be taken away."
Mr Umunna urged commuters to object while they still had a chance: "[Network Rail] haven't given a single leaflet to service users or put up a single poster to canvass our views. There has been no meaningful consultation and now they're seeking to quietly push these plans as a fait accompli."
Mr Umunna claimed Network Rail wanted to avoid the expense of having to upgrade the Wimbledon Loop stations which can only accommodate eight-car trains effectively downgrading the loop to a "feeder route" into the main Thameslink line.
Network Rail defended the proposals. PJ Taylor, deputy head of media at the organisation, said: "It's a huge project that will bring vast improvements to commuters across London.
"We've consulted Passenger Focus, local authorities and all relevant people. We've nothing to hide and the consultation has been open. To suggest otherwise is absolute rubbish.
"When draft consultation is approved we will have another 90 days-worth of further consultation before anything is set in stone." Valerie Shawcross, London Assembly member for Lambeth and Southwark, said: "Many people have moved into the area because of this service and there is a heavy reliance on direct access to Farringdon and City Thameslink.
"It is not acceptable to remove this service. It will be a dramatic disruption to thousands of commuters."
Reader views (34)
In answer to your question sally
no south londoners can't get the tube as there aren't any
the Thameslink is the closest train line to a tube that South Londoners can ever get but as usual we always get the rougher end of the stick look at the eurostar for example when it was at Waterloo it benifited south london as most of us could get there easily but north Londoners complaine about getting the tube (to which i might add there are plenty of lines that take you to waterloo) down here to get the eurostar so now south londoners have the extra jpurney to get to st pancras intl with our limited tube links and our out of date overground suburban lines
as for bus links only some routes actually reach central london others terminate short at either Peckham, brixton or lewisham
- Nat, Crystal Palace, 01/12/2009 21:14
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Do we need a petition at this stage?
- Peter Hollis, streatham, UK, 24/10/2008 08:41
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I am really dissapointed. I read this proposal in the Post dated 23 October, 2009 and have raised an immediate objection.
- Dimitrios Dourountakis, London, 23/10/2008 10:42
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This Wimbledon loop is very important for those of us when the new Euro Train terminal was opened at King's Cross and we lost the convenience of going to Waterloo. It is a direct route, important for those travellers carrying heavy &/or cumbersome luggage, as the only other alternative is lugging it up and down the stairs in crowded underground stations, as not all of these have lift facilities. For those travellers who have difficulty in negotiating stairs due to disabilities etc. there is a lift in Wimbledon and also King's Cross, so again, it is time that Network Rail & Transport London start to plan facilitating these passengers, particularly with the London Olympics and Para-Olympics in 2012!!
- Suzanna Messinger, Wimbledon, South London., 20/10/2008 21:15
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How can it possibly add 30 minutes to a journey when there will be 24 trains per hour from Blackfriars northwards thrugh the tunnel?
- Bob Wood, Kent, UK, 16/10/2008 13:33
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I quite frequently get the Thameslink from Streatham to St Pancras. It is the convenience of a through service that is useful and avoids the stress of changing trains. I want the through services to continue.
- David Lucas, Croydon, UK, 15/10/2008 21:24
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The FFC from Streatham is always packed at commuter times and people cant always get on from what I remember when I lived there, the service is over used as it is! Brighton & Croydon have other routes to get into Central London already! This could also mean more people using the Northern Line which is always packed already, If any service needs to be cut its the one from Croydon where there are other alternatives not the loop service.
- Simon Palmer, Colliers Wood, London, 15/10/2008 14:21
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I think people have missed that Blackfriars is in the City...
- Huw Morgan, London, 15/10/2008 12:48
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If there are plans to close off that branch, which is very popular, then it must be a necessary step in upgrading the lines into the City. My one great hope, as someone who relies on that service, is that a thorough study has been made of the impact this will have on other services -- e.g. via London Bridge and the Underground. I hope the extra passenger numbers are being added up and thought about extremely carefully..! Yes, there are other ways into town, and I'm prepared to use them. I just hope someone's doing the sums (I dutifully fill in my questionnaires about my train usage...)
- Si, Upper Norwood, 15/10/2008 10:16
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OK, it seems like the solution is simple. One train every 30 minutes (when not delayed/cancelled) is really not suitable for these long standing passengers that network rail and First Capital Connect do not want any longer. So remove the service/route from their control.
I used to also use the Wimbledon-West Croydon train a decade back and with one train of two carriages every 42 minutes it was a joke. Now as a tramline it is hugely popular. So remove the service, place interim stops on the the route and redesign as frequent, 4/6/8 carriage trains as part of the London Overground or a more frequent smaller tram operated by the Mayor's office.
Thameslink, national rail and FCC have had their chance, time to hand it over to the Mayor. Then watch as people flock to this route because of the new found respect for passengers and reliability.
- Julian Savitch-Lee, Wimbledon, London, UK, 15/10/2008 08:11
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We face losing our direct service to St Pancras International from all parts of South West London, not the most affluent areas of Greater London, in order that direct trains can operate from more moneyed areas, in particular Sevenoaks, Orpington, Bromley and Beckenham.
FCC are already trying to dissuade commuters from using this service by wilfully delaying morning peak hour trains on Blackfriars Bridge for upto 15 minutes, with the excuse of another train being equally late.
So that makes it okay to delay a further trainload of commuters many of whom have onward connections upon which they are reliant?
This service is a disgrace and now seems destined to become worse still.
Why exactly am I paying in excess of £4000 per year for my annual season ticket? Should there not be some customer service included therein?
Come back Southern Region, all is forgiven!
- Al, London SW16, 14/10/2008 21:16
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"Could add half an hour to journey times". Pull the other one. Whoever is complaining has obviously forgotten that City Thameslink is less than five minutes WALK from Blackfriars, and Farringdon less than fifteen. Also after Blackfriars station is redeveloped, it'll be a very easy walk from one platform to another to change train. The new station will have lifts, so it'll even be an improvement for the seriously disabled.
What the complainers are really grousing about is that not having a through service any more might knock a good few thousand off their half-million quid house prices. Tough!
- Nigel, London, 14/10/2008 19:48
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I am a South West Londoner and my work is relocating to King's Cross, so I am going to be dependant on this same direct Thameslink service from February. I have written to the chairmain of the Network Rail urging them to drop this proposal. We have little enough decent train services from South West London as it is and next to no tube on this side of the river.
Tom, the problem with changing trains is not the short walk but the extra 45 mins you then spend trying to board your connection because it is so overcrowded. Like Brian says, why should I have to change trains - we all pay through the nose as it is! I echo Raymond's comment - if transport was publicly owned we could stop daft proposals like this one
- Peter, Wandsworth London, 14/10/2008 19:46
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Aint these sarth Londoners lazy when one thinks how far users of Green Park station have to walk to change lines at Green Park Station.
The reality is this loop should be added to the croydon tramlink network with a link to East Croydon station which would allow transfer to the main through London service.
Thameslink only exists because someone called Ken Livingstone discovered the unused snow hill tunnel which had not seen regular passenger services since the beginning of the 20th century! He and the then Tory government combined the Bedpan electrification with the need to introduce new trains into blackfriars with re-opening the tunnel to create the original Thameslink on the cheap.
The new plans will see services from Knigs Cross added to those on the midland line with services to Kent.
Anyway thousands of commuters already have trains that terminate at Blackfriars and have to walk to Holborn some of these will now have a direct service as their trains are extended to Kentish Town during the re-building of Blackfriars.
Of course the tramlink option is a dead duck as you voted for Boris not Ken and he wants to play with toy buses and have nothing to do with trams.
- Melvyn Windebank, Canvey Island, Essex, 14/10/2008 18:21
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Tom, I can lose the link to City Thameslink yes, but why should I have to change trains to get to St Pancras and points further North which I can do direct now?
- Brian Potter, London, UK, 14/10/2008 16:40
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Why are South Londoners so bothered about losing the direct train to City Thameslink? City Thameslink is not an interchange and is less than 250 metres from Blackfriars, walking distance even for South Londoners.
There will be trains passing through Central London on Thameslink every 2-3 minutes at peak times, so I cannot see how it would add half an hour to a journey to change trains at Blackfriars. Maybe some find walking between trains too much exercise.
- Tom, Watford UK, 14/10/2008 15:12
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We have no control over that which we do not own,re-nationalize OUR Public Transport System.
- Raymond, Stoke on Trent, 14/10/2008 15:06
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Well said Gavin, it is worse than a cattle crate at the best of times and it only takes one to be cancelled or delayed (i.e. most days) and there is complete chaos.
- Claire, London, UK, 14/10/2008 14:43
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Has Sally Smith looked at a tube map recently? That big space about 3 miles south of Brixton is where Streatham is. About half of Londoners commuting into central London start their journeys at train, rather than tube stations hence the overcrowded trains and the anger about not being able to use Oyster pre-pay.
- Liz, Streatham, UK, 14/10/2008 14:13
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Metro, some of us have to get the children to school before going to work. This puts us on the peak trains.
Is it impossible for thameslink to run some trains which are 8 and some which are 12? Currently they run some that are 8 and some that are 4.
- Bloke, London, 14/10/2008 13:36
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bob - whereabouts in cheam do you live? there are "thousands of passengers who board at stations including Streatham, Tooting, Mitcham, Wimbledon, South Merton and Sutton" all lining up to have a "word" with you...
- Leftie, London, UK, 14/10/2008 13:35
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Well done Bob. Presumably you're all in favour of closing the City down entirely then, just to ease congestion ? How about instead companies such as SW Trains justifying their decisions to reduce train sizes from 8 to 4 coaches during peak periods ? Nothing to do with profiteering is it ?
- John Bloomfield, Twickenham, Middlesex, 14/10/2008 13:23
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What we really need is more frequent trains. Between 7 and 8am there are only 2 trains and between 8 and 9am there are 3 trains. After 9am there are 4 trains an hour. A few extra trains in rush hour would certainly solve the problem.
- Gavin, Streatham, London, 14/10/2008 13:05
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No, PJ Taylor, the proposal to cut the Sutton/ Wimbledon loop off from the cross-London Thameslink service will not ‘bring vast improvements to commuters across London’. It will (probably) benefit commuters from Kent and Sussex at the expense of Londoners. Residents in Streatham, Tooting, Mitcham, Sutton and Wimbledon, are going to be suffering a 2½ year loss of the crucial connection to the underground at Blackfriars in 2009-11, in order to ... lose their direct connections further north from 2015! Streatham station is a slum, the train services are appallingly overcrowded in the morning and evening rush hours, all other trailed improvements to transport from Streatham (such as the East London line extension coming our way) have been abandoned, and we STILL can’t use Oyster pre-pay on the trains. We feel badly let down by Network Rail and the rail companies.
- Liz, Streatham, UK, 14/10/2008 13:04
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And don't forget that Thamesink will no longer serve Moorgate from March which means a change to the underground whilst Farringdon is being rebuilt and Blackfriars is closed (for rebuilding)!
- Michael, London, 14/10/2008 13:01
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This was hardly hidden in two pargraphs. It has been clearly stated on the Thameslink programme web site FAQ about not upgrading the loop to take 12 cars
"There will be extra room in the rush hour on the Wimbledon loop brought in during 2009 when we will be able to run more longer, eight-carriage trains. However, we can’t run 12-carriage trains, it’s just too expensive to lengthen the platforms. There are complex sections of track in the way as well as a large bridge close to Tulse Hill."
- Tom, Watford UK, 14/10/2008 12:53
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And I had such high hopes that the Wimbledon loop would have an "almost tube-like" service which would get you directly into Farringdon and the Cross. It already crawls along at a snail's pace at the best of time - terminating at Blackfriars and having to change for a probably already jam-packed train from Brighton makes things worse.
- David, Formerly of Tooting, 14/10/2008 12:43
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I would agree to the proposal if the route was underused... BUT ITS NOT!! so I'm not sure where there focus group were made from, probably from up north!
- William, Sutton, 14/10/2008 12:28
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surely south londoners can get tubes and buses ?
- Sally Smith, london,united kingdom, 14/10/2008 12:28
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Bob - try doing a proper days work in the City and catch the 6am/7pm trains! It's not overcrowded at those times...
- Metro, Sutton, 14/10/2008 11:28
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This means that Thameslink will only run 12-car trains. The result is the certainty of Cricklewood and even Hendon Thameslink stations closing if "Brent Cross Thameslink" is ever built.
- Jon, London, 14/10/2008 11:26
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Thanks Bob for the comment.
The reason for the overcrowding is because its a popular route. If we took your suggestion. We'll have many more commuters swamping other train lines.
- Cattle, South, 14/10/2008 11:25
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Why do these people go live so far anyhow?! WIth the Gordon Brown crash of the economy everybody can afford a place in the centre of town!
- Georgie, Islington, London, 14/10/2008 10:59
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Anyone who has ever travelled on the Thameslink will know how overcrowded the trains get and how something needs to be done, if this means closing the city branch then so be it, there are other ways into the city.
- Bob, Cheam, 14/10/2008 10:12
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