Morning:
13°c
Defiant police to press on with MP leak investigation
Justin Davenport and Pippa Crerar01.12.08
Police investigating Tory MP Damian Green are to push ahead with their inquiry, raising the possibility of further arrests, it emerged today.
Senior officers held urgent talks at Scotland Yard this morning to discuss the case in the wake of the barrage of criticism from politicians of all parties over the MP's arrest.
Police chiefs were said to have been surprised by the scale of the criticism - particularly that levelled against deputy commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson who oversaw the investigation.
But insiders said they were was no question of abandoning the inquiry.Detectives were today examining documents and material from computers and would be holding talks with the Crown Prosecution Service about where to go next.
One insider said: "We are not going to pull the plug on this. We are looking at the evidence and if the evidence is there we will see where it takes us."
Privately, Scotland Yard officers defended their actions saying the decision to arrest the MP was made after careful consideration. One said: "They looked at all the options and based on the need to gather evidence it was felt that the only safe option was to carry out an arrest. It was about securing the best evidence. "
Sir Paul took temporary charge of the Met today after Sir Ian Blair's resignation. He has been criticised for his role overseeing the investigation.
As the acting head of the force he ultimately approved the decision to arrest the shadow minister. But that move was described by one senior officer as "totally catastrophic".
Fresh details emerged today of how Boris Johnson, as chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority, also questioned the decision to arrest the MP when he was told of the move beforehand by Sir Paul.
A senior City Hall source said: "Boris questioned whether it was necessary. He told him he would need convincing evidence that it was appropriate to arrest him rather than bring him in for questioning.
"He remains to be convinced that Damian Green had to be arrested by nine counter-terrorism officers.
"But he will now stand back and let the police get on with it. He was very careful not to in any way try to tell Sir Paul what to do."
The source also suggested Sir Paul had been put in a difficult situation as he was told about the operation by anti-terror chief Bob Quick before he became acting Met Commissioner.
Despite that, the Mayor was keeping an "open mind" about Sir Paul's decision.
Some police officials say that Sir Paul's decision effectively to approve the operation raises questions over his judgment.
One MPA official said: "Why did the Met agree to a criminal inquiry? What this all hinges on is judgment and proportionality. Sir Paul has got a huge problem with this and I think this could damage his prospects."
Others at the MPA said there was more behind the arrest.
A senior member said: "I cannot imagine that, after all the furore over cash-for-honours, an organisation at this level could have allowed this to have gone ahead unless there was absolute cast-iron evidence.
"If they have, they deserve everything they get. But I think there is more to it."
Reader views (53)
Police State. No more, no less.
Goon squad strikes again!
- James Ritchie, new malden, surrey
A would-be Tory councillor repeatedly stealing confidential government documents and passing them to a would-be Tory minister... How can anyone say that doesn't merit a thorough police investigation?!
Did the would-be Tory Minister report his knowledge of these thefts to the police? No - he kept quiet so that he could further his own political ambitions.
- Roy, London
As a retired Police Officer I think that the actions of the Met in this situation were outrageous. Still, the Met have always thought that they are a law unto themselves. If there have been any breaches of the law (which is debatable) they were so minor that they could have been dealt with other than by an arrest. I was always led to believe that an arrest was a serious interference with anyones liberty and not to be undertaken lightly. Seems things have changed
- Old Bill, uk
Of course an MP isn't above the law if he or she is suspected of violent assault, rape, armed robbery, child abuse, etc, - serious crime. Arrest, charge, gathering of evidence can all happen as for any other person. If the MP's office computer or files need to be examined, there's a police procedure for obtaining them.
However, embarrassing a sitting government politically is a vital function of opposition MPs, not a crime, even if their methods are devious. I think most politicians are egotistical and very thick-skinned, maybe not people we'd all want as close friends, but we undeniably need them to make our democracy work.
The worst part of this incident was the blatant intrusion of anti-terrorist police into the Palace of Westminster, to investigate an opposition MP continuing an ancient, not very "nice" but extremely necessary function.
It seems that some senior police officers, and perhaps some government ministers, think that they and their concerns rank above our Parliament. I hope our Parliament teaches them the error of their ways very quickly!
- Mike, Cardiff U.K.
Given the many comments about not one being above the law - can we now expect to see arrests so that Police can gather evidence against the Warmonger Blair?
- Robbie, London
The country is wrecked by criminals, thugs, yobs and layabouts. No-one even bothers to call the aggressive police any more for anything for fear of being found guilty of something themselves - the victims become the criminals and vice versa - yet the police mob go all out for an MP for doing his job. The police should be looking after us, the general public, who pay their wages through grossly inflated Council Tax and not prancing about on a political stage with their chief, in line for the top job permanently, sycophanting around fatso alias Fru Schmidt, head of the Gestapo. It is almost unbelievable. Even Orwell wouldn't have believed this madness he predicted would actually happen 24 years later than he said.
- Judith C, London, UK
It is imperative that Parliament come down on this outrage with great force. People involved, including the Speaker, the Home Secretary and the acting Commissioner need to lose their positions and the Prime Minister needs to make a public apology. If this does not happen, the Opposition needs to walk out in mass and stay out and the Lords need to reject all bills that come before it. If this happens, the Queen might have to respond to a request from the Opposition to call new elections on the basis that Parliament has effectively ceased to work in the way intended.
Stirling
- Earl Of Stirling, Evansville, IN, USA and Stirling, Scotland, UK
I am very astonished with the outcry of some politicians in relation to the arrest of Mr Green. No one is above the law. Mr Green is innocent until proven guilty. This is not a political matter- it's a police matter. Politicians should stop intimidating the police. We have seen instances were MP's have gone unpunished over their expenditures, if it was an ordinary person the won't have been this outcry. To be honest those politicians who are blaming the police have skeletons in their closets . Who next is what runs in their mind.
- Alex Lisinge, Putney London
Without prior authority from the DPP the police are acting without authority and thus outside the law in effect abusing an MP, false arrest etc. It would be better if they gave up it's going to cost a fortune and will not proceed to prosecution of an MP. Indeed the police who ordered the search of parliament could well face charges if their authority was not correct or correctly obtained.
- Bill G, Slough
I have always maintained that the wrong type of people join the police. It is the minority who care for the society they are charged to work FOR and protect.
My experience leads me to the conclusion that a complete overhaul of the police institution and its recruiting should be undertaken.
We are not a Police State as the police themselves believe. Police are merely public servants.
Most people do not like the police because they believe the police are not acting in any way in the public's interests - only their own. Many police truly believe they ARE the law and therefore somehow above it.
The public are rightly suspicious of the competence and intelligence of police. They know that the police institution and organisation is now stupidly driven by bureaucracy and self serving mediocres who want brownie points to promotion.
And the laughingly presumed 'fast rack' method of hiring university regurgitators serves us all badly. Universities only teach young people to read fast and regurgitate other people's thoughts and words, mostly rubbish.
We need an entirely new paradigm - in the police, in education, in the press, in parliament and in society’s values. We need to teach ourselves to think and to see humility, compassion and wisdom. Not a system of bubble and squeek words to justify mediocrity.
Otherwise all we get is yet more emasculated values.
- Gordon Mann, walton uk
This whole story appears to be based on leaks from "Senior Sources" and "Insiders", and information that has "emerged". All very serious - I do hope the Permanent Secretary in the Home Office asks the Met to investigate this very serious breach of security - but I doubt it.
- David H, Aylesbury, England
Time to get rid of Old Labour....they've ruined enough of Britain.
Time for change.
- Andrew Kimble, Lambeth
By the way, the involvement of the anti-terrorist squad is surely because the squad will have been stringently security-vetted beforehand. This particular aspect should not be controversial.
- Nigel, London
Yes, right Nigel. Good job that there is no terror threat to the UK then. How appropriate that these officers have so little anti-terrorsit wok on their hands when ,at the time,in Mumbai,the nationalities of the terrorsits weren't yet known. I'll sleep easier tonight having been so re-assured by Nigel.
- Notas Stupidassome, uk
The police are right o proceed with their legitimate enquiries
- Keith Price, Luton, England
Stalinism all over again. I agfree with Alan of Chigwell. Maybe Boris J shopuld head ther policed as well,then they can ditch their form filling and get on ith hunting down real criminals and terrorists
- Adrian, paris, france
One needs to understand what motivates these so - called senior police officers in order to grasp why such a grossly ill -judged decision could ever be considered , let alone acted upon .
Nearly all of them are supremely selfish and entirely driven by their desire to be promoted in rank . It is no exaggeration at all to say that many of them would consider selling their own Mothers for a promotion .
Stephenson and Quick have taken the decisions that they have in order to curry favour with the most deceitful and incompetent government that this country has ever had . The Command level of the Metropolitan Police has been so thoroughly politicised by Labour that it has now got to the point that they are openly siding with Cabinet Ministers and using the authority of the Executive and the law against Opposition politicians . Let's be clear here , these so -called senior police should be brought before Parliament to answer for their Contempt of Parliament and clear violation of Parliamentary Privilege . On issue after issue they bring the Metropolitan Police into disrepute , and the Operational side of the organisation are as appalled by it as the general public . They are entirely unfit for the positions that they hold . If the Conservatives truly want to deal with crime and terrorism in London in an effective way , then they are going to have to get rid of virtually all of the Senior Command of the Metropolitan Police when they are elected at the next General Election
- Marcus J. Tyson, London
so when exactly will we have the chance to invetigate the police. the inquiries into the stockwell murder and ian blair's corruption are a whitewash and scandalous. the police are unaccountable and rife with spansi practices. its about time the police were reminded who they work for (errr...thats us, by the way, the police arent the brightest!)
- Josh, london
The police are obviously desperate for evidence of some kind, simply because they've arrested someone for doing absolutely nothing wrong. It's a sad day when our own police can just citizens at whim. A revolting regime indeed and I don't know one person that will believe what does or doesn't come out of this. Damian is clearly innocent.
- Sam, UK
Boris--you got rid of one prat copper now get rid of another one!
- Alan, Chigwell. UK
This rotten government are simply running true to form.
Smith must go along with the rest of the low life who do not respect democracy and are prepared to intimidate in order to get their way.
- Kenherts, Enfield
What's quite surprising is the reaction of some of the posters here, in that they see nothing wrong with ANTI-TERRORIST police - NINE of them! - raiding someone's house, not to mention a MP, and keeping him at a police station for nine hours. Doesn't that raise your consciousness to the level of alarm?
And as for leaking of confidential Government information, whistleblowers should be ENCOURAGED to do so, provided it's in the public interest, and especially if it exposes any lying or criminal activity by the Government.
- Ralph, GB
Nu Labor go away!
- Georgie, Islington, London
Smith dodged direct questions over both her involvement and knowledge of this torrid episode. Second, not one of the questions released by Grieve have been answered. Last, Bob Quick and Paul Stephenson have effectively mangled their careers, with no hope of either now leading the Met.
So, we can all hope during the fall-out Smith will resign, or should we wait until the election when her marginal seat will inevitably turn bright blue ?
- Ian, London, UK
In the past you needed a search warrant before you could storm into someone's property; now it seems the police can 'self-certify' the need for urgent action: it's pathetic that officials of Parliament can let themselves be railroaded in this way. Just look what a mess people get themselves into when they act as judges in their own cause. Any commonsensical JP would have warned them off this hysterical behaviour. It would be comic but for the power these people have over our lives. Let's not hold our breaths waiting for an apology.
- Mdj, Leyton, e10 london
Neil, you are not far off this time. The new childrens database will hold details of ALL children in future not just those at risk.
- Patrick Griffin, Dalston, London
Another cynical abuse of Anti terror laws and enforcement provisions by a government who seems to disregard personal freedoms.
- Edward Wilson, Geneva Switzerland
I'm not surprised Damian Green was arrested, he is a grubby little muckracker. If it is found that he was enveigling civil servants to leak information he should be subject to the full force of the official secrets act and imprisoned. The Tories can squawk all they want about "Freedom" but their fredom only extends to their friends and members of the Bullingdon club!
- Kerry, Purley
Why does no one want to work with bonkers Boris I wonder?
- Steve, London
The real reason that they arrested him, rather than questioning him, was that they wanted to raid his house and offices in order to seize all his files, computers and messages in a desparate trawl for information about the leaks.
- M Wood, somerset uk
This arrest is absolutely disgraceful. The MP did his job in disclosing information that is important for people to know. For the Home Secretary to say she knew nothing about it is a load of tosh as they would have to approach someone in govenrment to arrest an MP. Labour is a total and complete disgrace. Bring on the next general election.
- Lou, London
So, a heckler is arrested at the Labour Party confernce under anti-terrorst laws, now an opposition mp. Who next? what next? where have british freedoms gone in the last 10 years.
I don't want to say too much in case this blog gets closed down and we loose the freedom of the press as well.
- Jm, London
People should not rush to judgement and censure on this matter, lest in our impatience we make it all but impossible ever to bring a member of the cabinet or shadow cabinet to justice. Let the police gather their evidence, and let any prosecution that may result take place. Boris Johnston is exactly right, that in due course the evidence has to be shown to have been compelling. There's plenty of time for recrimination at that time, if it isn't. Not least through the ballot box at the next election?
By the way, the involvement of the anti-terrorist squad is surely because the squad will have been stringently security-vetted beforehand. This particular aspect should not be controversial.
- Nigel, London
The police now have come to the point where they are ditrusted more than politicians. All their recent political arrests are backfiring on them. Take Liverpool last week when 13 BNP members were arrested for leafletting with an approved anti racial leaflet. They all have had notices saying there are no charges to face.
Next the beating of a Lance Corporal shown all over the internet.
What will happen about Damien Green MP? The squabbles continue. It is not the average copper , but those brown nosers to the government, at the top who are mainly to blame.
The best thing for the top dogs is to leak info on who gave the orders to arrest Green, a nice police mole.
We the public can sit back and watch and laugh.
- Richard Partridge, Eaton Bishop UK
It was only a couple of months ago that Brown wanted to extend detention without charge to 90 days. He then uses the same rules to sieze a sovereign state's assets (Iceland) and arrest an opposition MP. What gross abuse will he dream up next?
It would be funny if it wasn't so sinister.
- Nobby Clark, Perth, Scotland
More disturbing is why Jacqui Smith was withholding information that should have been in the public domain. The only reason cited so far is that it would have embarrassed her.
Information that everyone has the right to, logically can’t be leaked this is just disclosure.
- Ian, Reading, England
MPs, like everyone else, are 'innocent until proved guilty. But they are not, please, 'above the law'. If there is a genuine suspicion of whatever, police should and must pursue it without fear or favour. Searching the Palace of Westminster is a different matter: the 'Sergeant at Arms' (M/F?!!) should maybe assign a flunky to accompany police-persons, dressed in appropriate ceremonial garb. If she can't hold a sword herself, there would be volunteers.
- Steve, SW18
And the pathetic school teacher Jaqui Smith didn't know a thing about it ...just minding her own business.
- Delphine, Oxford
Any police justification that their anti-terrorist squad's rapid deployment to enter Green's family home and to raid his Westminster office was necessary to get to any [incriminating] 'evidence' before anyone had the opportunity to dispose of it, is ridiculous, in view of the fact they told Johnson, an 'ally' of his Conservative Party, 40 minutes 'notice'.
McLabour's, now predictably deceiptful, claim that their Ministers were not involved in Green's detention, is of little surprise.
'The Project' has, since it's inception by Blair, Brown, Mandelson and Campbell, continually run a conveniently unelected 'executive' and news-spin machine of 'fifth columnists' from the shadows of it's No10 'bunker', in order to deliberately distance Minister's from it's daily dirty Party politicking and propoganda, and to undermine any opposition or media attempts to implicate 'democratically elected' 'innocent' Ministers.
Hence Teflon Tony in the Cash for Honours 'enquiry'.
Whatever, it suits Gurner Gordon to let this arrest story 'run' and to let it 'hang in the air', with Green left dangling, but it'll also be fascinating to hear Boris' version of events.
- Dave, cumbria
If only the police were as eager to help the general public when they are being harrassed by dangerous hooligans on their own doorsteps. Damien Green was a soft target and he got hit hard - that's what the police like, a nice ordinary middle class man to come down on like a ton of bricks.
- Derek, London
The approach of the police does appear to be heavy handed, in view of the profile of the individual in question, however if the MP was encouraging the White Hall worker to leak information, as opposed to merely receiving the same then why should the MP not be questionned. He may have certain privileges/Parlimentary protections that place him in a different position toordinary people but this surely does not mean that he can willfully break the law.
I can understand why the media are in a pannick about this but the law is the law.
- Richard James, London
It is not enough to say that those responsible for this appalling attack on political freedom should be ruled out from gaining a promotion. They should be resigning now. Nothing can reverse the damage that has been done to the reputation of the UK as a free country by this arrest, but the resignations of all those responsible would at least be a step in the right direction. If they do not resign, they should be impeached.
- Jon, London, UK
Metropolitan Police Service or Armed Wing of the Labour Party?
- Ian, London
It seems all anti-terrorism laws brought in by this Labour government have been employed for reasons that do not encompass terrorism. This includes local government actions, an 82 year old heckler at a Labour conference and the Damian Green intrusion.
What is our Opposition parties doing to include a guarantee in these laws that they will only be employed for anti-terrorism??
- Bingham Macnamara, lymington, hants
To Lewis, if you had the socialist jack boots entering your home and terrifying your daughters on what appears to be very flimsy information I think you might feel a little bit angry. The fact that this arrest was a political act of spite, possibly, on behalf of an incompetent Home Secretary makes this a very direct attack on democracy in Britain. The eroding of our liberties, the politicisation of our police force and the arrest of opposition MP's have all the hallmarks of a communist/socialist state at work or a dictator like Robert Mugabe. How Mugabe must be loving this in Zimbabwe now that Britain has lost any moral right to criticise him for exactly the same actions.
This blatant attack on democracy needs to be vigorously fought by all those who value our democracy, Tory, Libe Dem or Socialist.
- Richard K, Nottingham
It maybe worthwhile recalling, as Hitler's control weakened, conversely his paranoia increased.
- Bingham Macnamara, lymington, hants
Lewis, this is not a case of MP's being above the law. This is a case of an MP being arrested at his home by 9 anti-terrorist officers because they suspect him of being involved in the leaking of home office documents, a practice that both Brown and Blair specialised in when they were in opposition. These documents did not involve national security issues and as such no law has been broken. This is about the heavy handed application of a law that was meant for a completely different purpose, nothing else.
- Neil, London, england
The fact is, without civil servents' leeks we wouldn't know what this government was covering up!! So they mustn't be silenced.
- Steph Harwood, MK
Seems to me,that we do not know the facts yet...so all the headlines are just speculation at present.
I would hope that the Met Police would realise that arresting an MP would be in the very least controversial...and could haunt the investigation.However...if there is wrongdoing/lawbreaking...are the MPs beyond the law? and isn't this what society needs to curb some of the MPs disgraceful behaviour of the past?
- S.White, Northampton/London
I hope the Metropolitan Police will now be arresting Cabinet Members or whoever associated with them released confidential information regarding last week's pre-budget report. All the slyly released communist influenced Labour Government propaganda that has revealed over these past 11 years should keep the Police busy for months trying to identify who the spin doctors were who sanctioned the actions.
- Joe, London, UK
Stephenson should do the right thing and pull out from the selection process. He was clearly appointed as Deputy Commissioner by the Home Secretary as a clone of Sir Ian Blair. The most senior positions at Scotland Yard, at this time, are filled with Labour acolytes and stooges, Mr Stephenson is one of them. There is growing resentment and concern, at both junior and senior operational levels of the Met, about how the force is being dragged down and it's efficeincy is being compromised by inhouse fighting at the very top of the organisation. Stephenson, Bob Quick and all the other 'political' promotions should be removed forthwith, and new senior managers appointed. For my tuppence worth Sir Hugh Orde should be appointed as Commissioner without delay. He is politically neutral, but is very politically aware, and has the interpersonal skills, from his leadership of the PSNI, to bridge the divide between the political parties. He would also receive tremendous support from rank and file officers. Stephenson should be replaced, as Deputy Commissioner, by Chief Constable Mike Fuller from Kent. He is another well respected ex Met senior officer with the added attraction of being from an ethnic background, but with no political axe to grind against the organisation.
- Pip, Croydon Uk
I wonder if Sir Ian Blair would have let it happen ?
- Sandy, London
Why do MPs think they are above and outside the law? Don't see them whinging, moaning and complaining when a member of the public is arrested, wrongfully or not. And anyway they should get a grip and a sense of proportion in a week when hundreds have died in Mumbai.
- Lewis, London
People like me have been branded "conspiracy theorists" for warning that we are sliding inexorably into a police state. Have you all woken up yet? Next up: compulsory microchipping of children so that "no one falls through the gaps in the service" or some such casuistry.
- Neil, london uk, Airstrip ONE .
