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LONDON'S busiest rail operator is planning cuts for hundreds of thousands of commuters as it introduces its 140mph Javelin trains this year.
The Evening Standard can also reveal that some services along the £5.2 billion high-speed line from Kent to St Pancras will be slower than those on the "old" lines at the moment.
Some existing services into London Bridge, Charing Cross, Cannon Street and Victoria will be slashed by up to 60per cent.
Many passengers are winners, however, with 98 stations seeing overall peak-hour improvements, and longer journeys cut by up to 23 minutes.
The changes will be introduced in December by Southeastern Trains, which has imposed fare increases averaging eight per cent, Britain's highest, to pay for the new service.
Major stations losing out include Bromley South, whose morning peak service into Victoria will be cut by more than 10 per cent; Dartford, with morning peak trains into London Bridge down five per cent; and Maidstone East, which will lose its service to Charing Cross altogether. None of these stations will be on the Javelin route.
Last week, the price of a weekly season ticket from Bromley South to Victoria increased by 11.6 per cent.
Bob Neill, Tory MP for Bromley and Chislehurst, said: "Bromley South is the busiest station on Southeastern's network apart from the London termini, yet we are being doubly fleeced. Not only are we paying for trains we will never use, we're losing our own trains to make way for them," he said.
In North Kent, the Medway Towns and Thanet, peak services on the existing routes will be slashed by up to 60 per cent and the off-peak service by up to 50 per cent. Some, though not all, passengers in these areas will be given new Javelin trains but they will be charged premium fares to use the service and most travellers will find that it takes them longer to reach the City or West End than it does now.
The Transport Minister, Lord Adonis, has claimed the new trains, bought at a cost of £258 million, would "transform the journeys of large numbers of rail passengers".
A Southeastern press release called the new service "one of the most significant milestones in the history of Britain's railways". It will improve journeys for visitors to the 2012 Olympics. However, the timetable obtained by the Standard shows that for commuters the Javelin will often be little, if at all, faster than existing services.
The fastest Javelin between Sittingbourne and St Pancras will take 61 minutes - one minute longer than the existing service into Victoria. The fastest Javelin between Chatham and St Pancras will take 43 minutes - again a minute slower than the fastest current service to Victoria, and two minutes slower than when the line was first electrified in 1959.
Even from Margate, the Javelin will only be one minute faster than the existing service. It is also expected to charge up to 35 per cent more than fares on existing lines - something likely to put it out of reach of most commuters.
On a north Kent Javelin journey from Margate, the train will only join the high-speed line at Ebbsfleet, west of Gravesend, for its final 20 miles into London. The first three-quarters of the trip - about 60 miles - will still be on existing low-speed lines. Other Javelin services, via Ashford, will run on the high-speed line for longer and will be quicker than existing trains - Dover by 15 minutes and Canterbury by 23.
However, most Kent commuters are heading for the City and West End, which are on the doorstep of the existing termini at London Bridge, Cannon Street, Charing Cross and Victoria.
The Javelin terminus at St Pancras will require most Kent commuters to transfer to the Underground or buses, adding up to a further 30 minutes to their journeys unless they work near St Pancras.
The new timetable also shows that Southeastern plans to slow down many existing services in an apparent effort to drive passengers onto the premium-fare Javelin trains. Fast trains will stop more often and many semi-fast services will be axed, stopping instead at all stations en route and taking up to 25 per cent longer to do the journey.
A Southeastern spokesman said: "Inevitably, when any changes are made not everyone is going to be happy, but we have sought to achieve the best balance we can. Overall, we believe we are increasing our passengers' choice and that the new timetables will be better for the majority. The overwhelming response from stakeholders has been positive, as many current services have been retained, stations have been spared from closure and stops at some smaller stations have been reinstated."
Reader views (40)
All, I was sceptical of the new Javelin service so tried it for myself last Friday.
I normally travel from Greenhithe to Cannon Street on the 06:29. The first shock was £8 per day to park my car £160 per month! The train ticket was an additional £10 (per day) supplement charge on top of my normal monthly ticket, another £200 per month.
The station, staff and trains were fantastic, we did 133mph (Blackberry GPS), I’m not a train spotter, honest. Train arrived in London early, never had that before.
Then there is the problem of the location St Pancras just isn’t in the right place, I need to be in the city, that means a zone 1 tube ride, using an oyster card an additional £780 per year.
Over all this is going to cost me approximately £3000 per year extra, I consider myself to be well paid but have to say this is way beyond my resources can stretch. Looking at the amount passengers using the service I would have to say this is going to be true for 99.999% of the North Kent population.
To sum up, fantastic service, staff, stations and trains. Give it a try before you knock it. I was a little depressed over the weekend knowing it would be the last time I used the service.
Advice to the operator…include a zone 1 and 2 tube ticket, reduce the parking costs at Ebssfleet for commuters.
- Steve, Greenhith, UK
I'm glad I moved to Queensland. The trains are real slow here but if you're on Queensland time, it is just fine.
- Martin, Queensland, Australia
im suprised that the rail company didnt look to france ie the tgv for its inspiration into a quicker rail service the success of the tgv is that they built a purpose built track for a purpose built train.
- Alan Salisbury, preston lancashire
How typical .The country that invented the train is dependent on a foreign company to produce a fast new train. Stevenson and Brunel must be turning in their graves.
When will the British government start to invest in British companies and British jobs and stop ordering trains and other essential investments from foreign companies?
If British industry got the investment that the banks got then the country might be able to earn its way out of the mess that Bankers and Politicians have got us into.
- Peter, Derbyshire England
In response to earlier posts:
1) Steam trains were not quicker between London & Scotland in the 60s compared to today. The Elizabethan ran non-stop from Kings Cross to Edinburgh in 6 and a half hours whereas today a train stops more often and does it two hours quicker!
2) It may take 2 minutes longer to get from Chatham to Victoria now than it did in 1959 but I bet in 1959 there were not half as many train services being funnelled into London. Trains in the 50s would have had bigger headways allowing for faster journey times. So slower journies are in fact a necessary factor of running more trains and carrying more people than ever into the capital by rail!
- James Oakley, Ipswich
steam trains were quicker to get from london to scotland than todays trains .can anyone supply times for train travel in the 60's then now,my money's on then not now....
- David Fitzgerald, coventry,england
Make no mistake they are going to cut semi fast services and slow services. They want everyone on the expensive service and the government have ok d it.
- Alan, Australia
2 minutes slower than in 1959 - 50 years ago.
Congratulations are in order.
Well done Labour and Gordon Brown for helping to create the conditions for this to happen. You should be very very proud. Your place in history must be assured.
- Dave Davies, Basingstoke, Hants
All you lucky people down in the south east should think yourself lucky,
After all these people could be in charge of running your BATH
- Keith, derby, england
I very much looking forward to the NEW Javalin Train. Now say if i want to go to Dover from London ST Pancras. That will save me going from ether London Bridge, Charing Cross and maybe London Victoria. But the only problem is i have to pay more Fare. Dispite i would use my Network Railcard and London Freedom pass. And maybe in years to come. It might happen at Enfield Town Train Station. including Ipswich, Norwich, Clacton, Southend, Hastings, Brighton, Eastbourne, Portsmouth etc. And maybe cornwall as well. Not only that. It could take years at Holyhead Ferryport and Scotland as well. And if they create more Trains and Railways like that in the Future. Then the Railway industry will start to become even more popular. And it help Reduce over-crowding on London Underground as well.
- Marc Ricketts, Enfield, UK
Javelin,no it should be called The White Elephant.After 6 months Southeastern will realise few passengers are using this pathetic service and may,just may do something about it
- Paul, Bromley.Kent
the stations at London Bridge, Cannon St and Charing Cross were specifically designed to be in the City and West End, convenient for where most passengers (sorry, 'customers') want to go. One benefit of rampant rail competition in the 19th Century was that people travelling from many Kent towns have a genuine choice of which station to arrve to: although the disbenefit that their trains cover short distances very slowly. It seems to me that the new service manages to lose the choice of a convenient arrival station without significantly improving speed and at significant extra cost.
- Andrew Spencer, London
All very well running this new service into St Pancras, but most of the people on the train with me work in either the city or the west end. So, whilst we may save time getting into London, we will lose a large portion of that by having to travel across London back from St Pancras to our place of work. So, not a huge time saving, coupled with an increased season ticket cost and the costs of travelling on the underground (which we don't currently have to pay). Not impressed!!
- Mark, Ashford Kent
Yes, there will be some winners, but from what I can see there are many more losers. Look at what the “losers” have to sacrifice in order to make the journey time better for others (for those who have chosen to live that far away from London). You only have to look at the comments and views placed on here - the ratio of those who are for and those who are against. Quite indicative of what the majority feel. Mostly against. Why don't they have that service option just for those who want to use it. Why should a large and considerable number of us have this service and all the normal/usual services we currently use and need reduced? (And by up to 60%). It is disgusting. It's all about choice, and quite frankly, we don't seem to have any. You might benefit, because you live so far away from London, but everyone else who doesn't benefit suffers BIG TIME. And quite unfairly so - why should we pay up to an extra 35%(!!!) for no improvement at all? A much longer journey because we have to tube it halfway across London and pay for tube fares!?!? It just does not make sense and is totally ridiculous! For something that is going to cause such misery to so many, if they wanted to create such a faster route they should have either put all that money into improving the current service they are running, or created a separate line for this. The downside of this far outweighs the benefit.
- Lanie, Chatham, Kent
The journey time from our part of Kent, Ashford and Folkestone will be dramatically cut and even if it's more expensive it will be well worth it. Like everything new there are winners and losers but we should be celebrating a significant milestone in the history of our railways. The journey time from St Pancras to say Bank station will be little different from that of Charing Cross or Victoria. Only London Bridge and Cannon Street will be quicker.
- Mike, Hythe, Kent
I forgot to add to my previous email.. I know where they can stick their "Javelin"....
- Lanie From Chatham, Chatham, Kent
Are they mad? The majority of us commuting want to stick with Victoria, Cannon Street, London Bridge, Charing Cross and Bromley. Hows about improving the service to the stations that we WANT and NEED to get to. I know what will happen. Those of us (majority) who need to get to the City and West End will continue to use the "old" reduced service and we will all be standing on the trains packed like cattle. Tell you what, why don't they rip out the seats, and throw in some hay for us? How on earth does this benefit? So, lets see, for a journey time that has been slashed by a great big massive 1 MINUTE or so, I will have to pay more for, I will end up travelling somewhere I don't need to get to and then have to fork out for tube fare too. As if the train fare increases aren't bad enough already! Oh, and that is not mentioning the fact that we will all be heading for a commuter jam at St Pancras. Which will add lots more time, at least 30 or 40 minutes more to travel across London on the tube. Many mornings it can take me 35 minutes or more at times just to travel 3 stations with one change in between - can't wait to try it from St Pancras. We have always been shafted in terms of issues we have with regards to trains/commuting/fares etc because there is only one provider and they totally dominate the railway and can dictate what we have to do. Dictate is the right word. What choice do we have? I am NOT happy! (I think you can tell)
- Lanie From Chatham, Chatham, Kent
£258M to ADD to journey times and make the commuters life even more difficult! Surely Lord Adonis is not the one eligible to comment on the state of the commuter trains from his home in Islington! He would be better to try to speak with some of the people commenting on here or better still try and use the wretched service which could have used this money far more wisely instead of just ripping off the captive customers of Kent!
- Pete Burt, Newington, Kent
I've spoken with my friends who commute into London and terminating in Kings Cross benefits one person out of the ten of us!!
- James, Gravesend
Andrew Ross, in 2010 there will be a new DLR line that serves both Stratford stations and I have heard that a bus service between the stations is also being considered until the DLR line is ready.
Jo, the premium for Javelin journeys will only be applied to the 'high-speed' portions of the journeys and will vary depending on which station you use - the premium level will be 20% max for those travelling via Ashford whereas it's 35% max from Ebbsfleet/Gravesend and 30% max from further afield (also via Gravesend).
- Edvid, Luton, UK
General allowance to travel to London is an hour from Medway, but that is Victoria, Charinging Cross etc. I work in Brentford so this new line will actually extend my journey time. This is going to cause a lot of problems for the commuting community. Not pleased.
- James Healy, Medway
I travel into Cannon St and have 8 mins walk to my office in Fenchurch St. Why would I (and thousands of others like me) want to travel to the City via St Pancras, pay 35% extra and additional underground costs? The journey will not be any quicker if you have to take the overcrowded tube from Stratford or St Pancras. Iraised these points with Southeastern, my local MP, the DfT and asked the Evening Standard to run a story - two years ago. I was ignored. What a pity awareness is only now being raised when we are stuck with the thing. It is a costly white elephant and I see little benefit to commutersand let's face it - the train operators should keep their commuters happy as it's us who pay all the money.
- Jo, Folkestone
A lot of complaints here then!
Back in 2003, the now defunct Strategic Rail Authority published a detailed consultation, regarding high speed domestic services through Kent.
It showed that the best cost/benefit ratio would be on trains from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet/Gravesend, plus Ashford/Folkestone/Canterbury W/Ramsgate and Dover (subject to the Shakespeare tunnel resolution.
This option would have retained virtually all current levels of service from these staions and improvements to the remainder of the Kent rail region.
However, campaigning by Kent MPs, Kent County Council and Medway Council has resulted in extending Javelin services much further on 'classic' lines and in turn negating almost all the benefits that came with it. For example, the high speed trains will call at all FIVE Medway stations - a section of route that is akin to the Bakerloo Line and has an average line speed of about 38mph!
Also it has now presented the train operator with an inevitable conclusion, to artificially slow down the current fast trains from east Kent via Medway, as to force passengers onto HS1. Gravesend is the only town in North Kent where the Javelin service may be worth the cost - due to a 24 mintue journey time. The further east that you might travel from, however, the greater the Javelin service might be considered, as an expensive waste of time.
- Aiden B, GRAVESEND
Tim is wrong. The fastest travel time from Canterbury (Canterbury East to Victoria) is indeed 85 minutes (by the 22.22 train) and a typical time is 88 minutes. The point about City commutes on the new fast link via Stratford is that they will involve a half-mile walk between the Javelin station and the existing Stratford station, eliminating any advantage.
- Andrew Ross, London
Check your figures! I travel everyday from Canterbury to London and the current journey time is nearly 1 hour & 40 minutes no matter which London station you go to. The new train will take 60 minutes. So that's a saving of 40 minutes not 23 so think in the case of Canterbury you should check your research again!! It may be the case that for other towns the time saving is negligible or maybe not even better but in the case of Canterbury your figures stated are incorrect and I for one am looking forward to my journey time being dramatically reduced.
- Tim, Kent, UK
Culltural conditioning on the spot!
As we have a few miles of high speed railway track, it immedialtely opens up a market for the capitalistic commercial elite to find ways to profit. Introducing high speeds trains (as is a common feature on the continent), without a decent infra structure (which is normally NOT a common feature on the continent) and the certainty to be able to manipulate finance through predetermined investments (increas of passengers fees) smells of the same democratic misuse by those stakeholders that caused the credit crunch.
- Eddy Kloprogge, Cliftonville, Kent
I am disgusted with the installation of the new high speed trains. I already pay a ridiculous amount of money for a monthly travelcard which has just gone up 10% and have to incur 4 hour delays home due to signal failure! And to top it off I often have to stand on the way home because there are not enough seats for all commuters! And with this new high speed service it is going to get worse. Some of the trains are to be cancelled to accommodate the new trains which are to cost more than we already pay and they don't even go into Victoria! National rail are doing commuters no favours, just inconveniencing us more...
- Vikki, Kent, UK
Hello government? Why can you not make the existing stuff work first??
- Steveo, Islington, London
I live in sittingbourne and work near London Bridge, why would I want to get a train to St Pancreas, and then have to take the tube, (and pay more for the privilage). However it would appear that i will be losing some services to London Bridge. I not that Lord Adonis says that the new trains will "transform the journeys of large numbers of rail passengers. This would indeed appear to be the case, the service will be worse and we will be paying more. What other industry could do this.
- Ken Shortall, Sittingbourne, Kent
It is quite astonishing that after millions of pounds of investment, new trains that are faster than anything every seen for commuters before are slower in to London than their predecessors and the time table is two minutes slower than it was 40 years ago. It is equally mind boggling that stations like Bromley South see a 10% reduction in their services despite the fact that their trains go to Victoria, not Paddington, and we were all promised that services would be increased and would have more coaches just 12 months ago. Similarly, it is utterly fool hardy of the train companies to extract swingeing fare rises out of their beleaguered passengers. However, all is not lost. The companies may think they can make hay whilst the sun shines at our expense whilst failing to keep their promises. For example, I still cannot use my Oyster card on the mainline to work. However, there is another method called the car. It takes me at least 90 minutes to get to work by tube. It takes an hour on the main line. It takes 35-40 minutes on the road. And guess what, if you work out the cost of taking the tube, the train or the car, the car is cheaper. So unless I have to get in to town, the rail companies do not see much money from me and that will be increasingly be the case amongst other users until they provide competitively timed services at competitive prices.
- Andrew Shaw, Brentford
They cannot even get to work slow trains so why even try fast trains??
- Jacqueline, Hampstead, London
Another example of those in charge not listening to the needs of ordinary people!!
- Angry Of Alton, Alton UK
I,too, am distinctly unimpressed with the planned new High Speed Service, as a regular traveller from Folkestone to London. Whilst it is perfectly true that the peak journey does take now 100 minutes, off peak, every hour, the journey takes 80 minutes so the High Speed at 63 minutes is no impressive saving, plus you end up in St. Pancras instead of the very convenient Charing Cross now. Overall time saving therefore nil, cost otherwise more expensive!
As for people destined for Cannon Street and City areas, the High Speed is useless. Interestingly, SE say you can change at Statford from High Speed for the City - between to differnt stations - what, on to the underground - they must be joking
- Bernard Lockett, Folkestone, Kent.
The subtext is that it is far better not to commute.
The message is, "Come, let us commute the Commuters!"
Indeed one tends to wonder, seen from my regional difference, why one does not actually work in the same
metropolis as thet one inhabits.
Let's be frank.
Things will not get better, and may yet get worse....
- Geoff Herbert, Lara, Australia
A little disingenuous to compare the times into Victoria without adding on the 30 minutes or so into the City, whilst noting it for St Pancras, and egregiously misleading to contrast City travel times by using St Pancras as a termination point, when anyone with half a brain travelling to the City will disembark at Stratford, a mere 10 minutes to Liverpool Street.
- Adrian, Southfleet
Should they not fix first what we already have?! It seems this useless government always wants to expand first and not make work what we have today?!??
- Norman The Man, London
For the benefit of the very few that can afford them, SER have visited an expensive disaster on a great many more of the travelling public. Maidstone and district will now have the worst rail services in the whole of the South East Region for a community of its size and nature. Given increases in prices in recentt years we will be paying over double the prices for a substantially reduced and slower service. Moreover, the late night services are rank bad. After 9.00 pm. for anyone going from the City end of London it can take up to three hours to get back to Maidstone.
- Tom, Maidstone UK
What we all said in the beginning we don't want the new service it is of no benefit to us. It is another example of an out of control civil service.
Network Rail are totally unaccountable and we have no right of appeal against these services. The poloticiamns are so far removed from the real decision making process it is deroisory thay are even interviewed. Get the civil servants who made these awful decisions out into the public arena and make them justify what they have done as so far they seem unable to do it.
I simply ask Southeastern who actually thinks that what you have done is actually beneficail to them as a commuter of 22 years from North Kent I can find no-one who is remotely impressed wiuth the new service they are being offered.
They'll wheel out we have had meet the manager days at all London terminii but thats hardly to consult us on what we think it's a hollow PR excercise from which they all walk sying well that we a pain but we'll carry on regardless.
Why you are sending new trains up the oldest peice of track in the Southeatern networrk when you could have got the new train onto the new mainline after the Medway Bridge is astounding all of us and to date no one at Southeastern can give me a rational reason why they want to send teh replacement trains via Gravesend when they never went taht way before.
- Duncan, Kent
A monthly train ticket from Strood costs £275 - this is just for the trains. Which will go towards paying for the new service that the majority of us do not even want. South Eastern trains are cancelling the trains so we are forced to travel on the high speed (which incidently will make my journey longer) and cost even more than I am currently paying. This is shocking and the Government just sits by and encourages it!
- Jk, Kent
What is the point of staging the Olympics now when there are fewer trains to accommodate visitors. I think that potential tourists should be told of the slashing of train services in and around the capital. The message should be: "Don't bother to come."
- Markwright, Milan, Italy
