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I’d love to fight Boris at the next election
David Cohen19.03.09
We are standing in Ken Livingstone's kitchen among the laundry hung over the chairs when he shows me the latest object of his fascination, the family's pet chameleon. "It's from Yemen," he says, "one of just three breeds not from sub-Saharan Africa, so it's probably a fundamentalist chameleon." He chuckles dryly and points to a shiny sliver of chameleon poo. "See that? It's my job to clean it up."
If anyone can make chameleons sound political, Ken can, but still, it seems hard to believe that the man who nine months ago had the most powerful job in London, with a £13 billion budget and 15 personal press officers, is talking about his latest wizard lizard.
Yet, after a night watching three episodes of The West Wing and drinking half a bottle of Rioja (he says he has three bottles a week), and a morning digging up his garden at his four-bedroom terrace house in Dollis Hill, north-west London, Livingstone, 63, appears more relaxed than ever. "I'm growing potatoes," he says. "As London collapses into barbarism under Boris, we've got to secure our food supply."
I'm here for his first interview with the Standard in seven years, in the month that sees the sixth anniversary of the congestion charge which he introduced (of which more later). But let's get two headlines out of the way first. He's talking about marrying Emma Beal, the mother of his two youngest children, and, yes, he will be putting his hat into the ring to fight Boris Johnson in the 2012 mayoralty election.
"I would love to stand for Mayor against Boris in what will be the Olympics year," he says. I point out he will be in his 66th year and that already there is opposition within the Labour Party to him standing again. "Unlike 2000, when the party was desperate not to have me and chose Frank Dobson, even though I got three times as many votes as he did, I expect a completely fair contest for nominating the Labour candidate next time around."
If he lost, would he run as an independent candidate again? "No, because this time there will be a straight 'one member, one vote' and I'll happily accept the result. I can't conceive of Labour pulling the same tricks as they did before. As to my age, mentally I still feel 40."
On the domestic front, he says: "Emma and I might get married when I've finished writing my autobiography in the summer. The only reason we haven't done it before now is because it would have been a complete media circus while I was Mayor."
So what is his new life as Citizen Ken like? The loft room of his house - which he shares with Emma, 42, a former secretary on the Standard's ES magazine, and their two children, Thomas, six, and Mia, four - is his new office but he shows me into his downstairs living room cluttered with books and old sofas liberally scribbled on by his children.
Money is clearly not a driver in Livingstone's life. "I'm not worried about money," he says. "What drives me is power." As he talks, he lapses into telling references about "my staff at City Hall". Is it difficult to let go? "It will take two years before what's happened sinks in mentally," he says. Confusingly he adds: "Actually, I don't feel as if I've lost my job."
Eh? He doesn't? "No, it's not as if I wake every morning and think I'm Mayor; more like what Tony Benn meant when he said, 'I'm leaving Parliament to devote more time to politics.' I grew up in an era when men didn't cry and I'm a product of that age and not the sort to agonise over spilt milk. I just get on with it. I am still involved in politics. I'm invited to give speeches internationally and recently I spoke to 1,500 legislators in North Carolina about global warming and the economy: these are people with power and if I can influence them, that's still having power."
Quite why they should want to hear Ken pontificate on the economy is another story. Only last June he predicted that Gordon Brown would steer us through the turbulence "without the economy slipping into recession". More to the point, it's clear that real political power - in the sense of being able to change things directly - is the one thing that's slipped from his grasp.
"Yes," he agrees, "to be Mayor of London has become the second biggest job in British politics. I could pick up the phone and get put straight through to the chairman of Ford in Detroit to discuss upheavals at their plant in Dagenham. You end up working with Bill Clinton and the leaders of 40 world cities on a climate change programme. Nobody realised how huge the job was when I was elected in 2000."
He still routinely goes to City Hall to watch Boris Johnson put through his paces at Mayor's Question Time. Why does he torture himself? "Oh, I enjoy it. I find it fascinating watching my successor coming to terms with the job, and" - he grins - "making so many mistakes."
How is Boris doing? Is he more successful than Ken expected? "Oh, it would be impossible for him to do worse than I expected. I thought Boris was an English version of George Bush, a hard-line neo-con, but he's more centrist in how he's run things. Long-term I still think he'll be a disaster for London because his strategy is not about what's best for London. It's about beating me, getting re-elected in 2012 and using City Hall as a base to challenge David Cameron and succeed him as Prime Minister."
Isn't that a bit rich coming from Livingstone, who admits his "greatest regret" is that he "never made Prime Minister"? But broad national aspirations aside, what are the specific policy changes that Ken objects to? "Getting rid of Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair was a mistake, he should have kept the bendy buses, and scrapping £3 billion of my transport projects that were due to start up when Crossrail finishes in 2017 will be hugely damaging."
He goes on to argue that Boris "only got rid of Blair because he's in hoc to his [other] employer The Daily Telegraph", who pay him, Boris has admitted, £250,000 a year to write a weekly column. "That's almost twice the £140,000 salary he gets as Mayor. When somebody pays you that much, are you going to go against what they really want?"
But Ken also wrote a newspaper column in his first year as Mayor (admittedly he wasn't paid quite as much), and one of the things that has surprised Left-wing commentators is how "liberal" Boris has been on the "living wage" and green initiatives - certainly not very Daily Telegraph. I had hoped that nine months after his defeat - which he'd initially described as "being like a bereavement" - he might be ready to assess Boris more even-handedly, but, as ever, he is determined to play the politician and put the boot in.
Is he always so cynical? "Cynicism has served me well," he says. "It's a good way of starting to analyse politics." His analysis of why he lost the election is similarly hard-boiled. "Labour's national vote had plummeted to 24 per cent, the worst for 40 years, and the Tories were on 44 per cent. I couldn't overcome that." If he had the election again, would he do anything differently? "No," he shakes his head, "nothing at all."
Critics believe he lost because he'd become too arrogant. Lee Jasper, his £110,000-a year race adviser, was forced to resign after the Evening Standard published allegations about the misuse of millions of pounds' worth of London Development Agency grants and salacious emails Jasper had sent to a married woman associate. But Ken had stridently stood by him. And earlier he had refused to apologise to a Jewish Evening Standard reporter for likening him to a "Nazi concentration camp guard", despite everyone, including his deputy Nicky Gavron and an appeal judge, condemning what he'd said as inappropriate and offensive. Why was sorry the hardest word?
"I've been calling journalists names for 20 years, and to apologise when I felt I hadn't done anything wrong would have been hypocrisy. As for Jasper, the police have investigated and 14 months later, no criminal charges against anyone have been brought." At least for now. As he admits, police investigations "are continuing on a third of the 12 organisations" for which the lack of an audit trail caused grave concern.
He continues: "I believe in never giving in to media pressure. Never. It's not my style. If I'd gone to university, I would have been a smoother, more emollient character. I grew up in my grandmother's flat in Streatham and I was the smallest child in a school of 2,000 boys in my first year. It meant I developed my verbal skills as a way of handling conflict, and that I learned to stand up to bullies."
Recently life has been a lot quieter, he admits. "Initially, I turned down an invitation to go on Celebrity Wife Swap with Emma, and I had some head-hunters offer me some non-executive directorships. I told them I opposed corporate bonuses and that companies should be taxed more. They agreed my views might not go down that well in the City."
Instead he took on speaking engagements at up to £10,000 a pop and a Saturday morning radio show with LBC that "pays not very much". "In six months, I earned £70,000 from my speeches, but bookings have tailed off with the credit crunch."
Another source of income, he hopes, will be his autobiography. "I've done 40,000 glorious words and I expect to be ready to hawk it about this summer. My idea was to write 200,000 words about my eight years of the mayoralty but the publishers all went, 'Oh boring, we want to hear about your sex life'."
But he won't acquiesce and write about his sex life, he says, nor about his three love-children with two different women whose existence, although whispered about, was made public a year ago. Did that upset him? "Only in the sense that they're at secondary school and the last thing teenage kids want is stuff about them in the newspapers. But I see them all the time. We go on holiday together. We're close."
Are there any more revelations to come? "Well, if you find any more of my children, it will come as a surprise to me."
How does he relax? "I'm lucky in that I have a wider range of interests than most politicians. My first job application was to London Zoo to be a zoo-keeper. I have always had a passion for natural history and also science fiction. If I hadn't been a politician these past 40 years, I would have loved to have been David Attenborough."
Does he think Gordon Brown will win the next general election? "The odds are stacked against him but he's got one thing in his favour: Cameron doesn't want to spend to get us out of the recession. The only people who agree with Cameron are the Right wing of the Republican party, people like Sarah Palin, and as long as Cameron is out of tune, Gordon has a chance.
"But the real idiot is Mervyn King, the Governor of the Bank of England. It was his job to be on top of the economy but he was catastrophically slow to act. I blame him and those bankers getting their bonuses. Honestly, we should shoot one banker a week until the others improve. They are guilty of rapacious, near criminal abuse."
How would he like to be remembered? "The congestion charge was a first for a capital city and is one of the things I'm most proud of. On the day we started it, 70,000 fewer cars came into central London, and today it's still 70,000 fewer. Worldwide it's seen as groundbreaking and places like Milan have copied it, with New York perhaps set to follow."
Was it his idea? "Actually, we introduced it because big business and the Evening Standard under Max Hastings campaigned for it and demanded it on the grounds that if we didn't do something, firms would leave." Even so, as a dyed-in the-wool Londoner, his preferred mode of transport is the Tube. And we are off there right now. We walk, fast, to nearby Willesden Green station. Who is he meeting? Anyone important? He laughs mischievously. "From here on, my day begins to improve. I'm off to the dentist."
Reader views (66)
Never again please.....Enough damage was done to London and its reputation
Ditch the congestion charge and make it easier to park and you will relieve a lot of congestion (All the cars circling for the few spaces left)
And Bendy buses...........you could walk along the roofs of all the half empty ones blocking up the traffic lights in Regent Street and, surprise suprise, congesting the traffic.........!
- Andrew, Chingford
One problem with those who want to limit terms to 2 is that Ken served 1 as an Independendent and 1 as a Labour Mayor this means he has 2 terms left! Think about it...
- Melvyn Windebank, Canvey Island, Essex
Only two terms is a good idea. Ken should get a life, he´s done enough political damage as Mayor.
- Edwin Underhill, beaconsfield, bucks
Bring in the rule that you can only serve 2 terms as Mayor, result goodbuy Ken Stalinstone.
- Den, London
Message for Charlie of Soho - that's because we had to move out of London, to get away from Ken!!!!
- David, Fleet UK
I know that I and many people I know supported Ken because of his sincere committment to reducing pollution in the capital and making it a greener city. He alone had the guts to put in the Congestion Charge and was re-elected the next year. We need politicians with principles who are prepared to risk re-election on important policy matters.
- James Frankcom, Shoreditch, London
Please God do not let him run or be elected again, he is NOT required.
- Mike, London England
Livingstone, you turned London in to a cesspit full of no go areas. Your not wanted by the working poor of London. You personally have made our life's hell. Go to Cuba and be happy!
- Mike, Lonon
Ken was always a has been. Only his ego never knew!
- Kerwood, London, UK
Ho god no so he can have the highest paid secretarys.
And not tell us how he spends our money no thank you
london needs new blood .
- Brian Love, plaistow
Go away you deluded, yesterday's man. We don't want you back.....ever !
- Paul, Enfield., Enfield, Middlesex
Heaven forbid Livingstone is ever returned as mayor,Surely now he is no longer mayor he has more time to spend with his friends, ie, Gerry Adams and Martin Mcguiness,and not forgetting his muslim friends.
- Carol Taylor, romford england
Since Ken went London has lurched from one crisis to the next. Like him or not he was a very good Mayor.
- Simon Geller, United Kingdom
yes i agree kens ego helped to destroy london ....london does not need ken at all.. it was all about ken and nothing to do with london, in fact under ken london losts its identity.
- Colin, kent
Ken was absolutely the right person to be elected as the first Mayor of London and establish the post during the first eight years.
However, I believe in a two terms maximum for any political leader. He should not stand for the post again.
- Michael, St Albans, Hertfordshire
I voted for Ken once but NEVER again. Why? His ego took over and when confronted by allegations of corrupt practices in the administration his first thought was to protect his clique instead of protecting the tax payer. No thanks. There are enough trough merchants in Labour already without opening London's pocket again.
- Charles, london
He is an appalling man and this piece of PR fluff does nothing to convince me otherwise.
- Emily Oliver, London
Ken has no business representing Londoners.
- R Barker, Putney, London
I have to laugh at the ill-informed Ken supporters who are dreaming of days gone by. Days when Ken used the office of Mayor to make friends with Castro and Chavez, where money was spent on preferential groups who supported the Mayor and where Ken did all he could to drive a wedge between the wealthy and poor in the city.
Boris is a breath of fresh air and has surprised the doubters with his honest and fair approach to London. He's more popular than David Cameron, but any Boris watcher knows that Boris's first committment is the city of London and the Tory Party comes second.
Beware the ex Mayor and his lust for power. His days are over, he should enjoy retirement.
- Clint Heine, Shepherds Bush
Please God, no! Haven't we suffered enough under Labour mismanagement with farcical vote-buying non-job creation schemes, etc.?
- Anne, Walthamstow
This person corrupted London through the GLC which was a disgrace, then went on to corrupt the Londonb Assembly with his incompetance and his gang masters. He is unfit for purpose. He should go away and stick to his newts
- Mark Armstrong, london. uk
Livingstone got in originally because he was an independent setting out for the benefit of London against everything else including the Bliar government. When he got in he sold his soul and that of London to NuLiebour.
He will not even be standing in 2012 as after the next election there will be so many high profile current government ministers out of work there will be a queue to challenge Boris and Livingstone will be at the back.
Of course he is taking an interest in London he has nothing else to do and doesn't need to work as he feathered his nest while in charge.
Get a life Livingstone...a new one.... and leave us alone.
- Dereck, London, England
it is nothing more than a ego trip and to get back on the gravy train
- John Mckim, glasgow.uk
NO,NO,NO
- Lady Caroline, London
Personally I would welcome his return to the limelight.
- Jeremiah, London
Just go away Ken.
- David, Fleet UK
Ken, do us all a favour... just goooooooo!!!!!!!
- Mary Stteer, ealing london
As with the American Presidency, the office of Mayor should be limited to two terms. Ken has had his period of office - AND WE HAVE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF HIM!
- Anthony Pierce, Bromley
Thanks but no thanks Ken.
- Mike, london
He did enough to ruin London and the lives of Londoners when he was mayor and a member of the GLC! We do not need him wasting OUR hard-earned money yet again.
- Julia, West London
Please just go away Ken. The people voted you out for many reasons, not least because you let us all down really badly and never said sorry.
- Thomas, London
Ken and Broon are yesterday's men. The labour party is in meltdown and has shown it cannot be trusted with our money and liberty. The future is BLUE.
- Andrew E, Leaving UK
It was not just you Ken it was the suspicious characters you brought in to top jobs.
You had your chance now please go.
- David,Chertsey, Chertsey.UK.
He ought to bow out quietly whilst he has a little dignity left - but he should be made take responsibility for the 2012 debacle.
- R.F., Yorks, UK
I'm looking forward to voting for Ken in 2012. Interesting to see that it's people OUTSIDE London who are making anti-Ken comments here...
- Charlie, Soho, London
The only times when I've seen things improve were when Ken was head of GLC and then when elected Mayor. Both times you could see some organisation and clear strategy.
He'll have to change his image. He shouldn't get involoved in World politics e.g. with Chavez etc etc.
His Knowledge of London is immense and passion (for London) cannot be in doubt, both attributes Boris doesn't have.
- Terry, Wandsworth, London
Ken is yesterdays man - go quietly. Have some dignity!
- John, London
OH GOD!..........PLEASE NO!
NOT AGAIN?.............
GERONIMO
- Geronimo, LONDON MIDDLESEX
I do hope Ken takes over by 2012 so's he'll get the flack over the Olympics instead of Boris. I like them both but Ken's lost some of my respect due to his unpleasant remarks about Boris.
- Dee, london
Gosh, the Boris Brigade are rattled, aren't they? It must be a bit of a shock to see Ken so fairly and evenly treated by the Standard. I might have to start buying it again!
As for Boris, I'll judge him on his performance in 2012 and vote accordingly, as will most Londoners. We don't appreciate being told how to vote now, thank you.
- Kyle Adams, London, Ealing
Come back Ken! You did some really good things for London, and we're just as sad as you to see you go. Funding went to where it was needed and London prospered under your stewardship. Overall, you care; a rare thing for a politician in the modern day.
- Terry Spencer, London, England
As the Leader of the group on the London Assembly which voted against Ken Livingstone's policies more often than any other - far more frequently than the Tories - I would nevertheless suggest that most correspondents are missing an important point. The former Mayor has shown a genuine and continued interest in London issues, even though I would disagree with a number of his ideas and statements. Continuing to attend meetings and show an interest demonstrates that engagement, and when you see him there you have to ask: would the current Mayor have ever again visited City Hall had he lost the 2008 election, even by one vote? The former Mayor did much that I would disagree with, but his commitment is surely not in doubt and if he wishes to stand for election he should do so. It is nothing to do with arrogance, ego or lack of dignity. Quite the opposite - those characteristics are the ones which would make a defeated politician slink away.
- Damian Hockney, london, UK
KEN IS THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO LONDON. I AND MANY THOUSANDS OF LONDONERS WILL VOTE FOR KEN AGAIN. WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET WITH KEN, BUT TORY BORIS? WOULDN'T TRUST HIM AND HIS KIND IF MY LIFE DEPENDED ON IT.
WELCOME BACK KEN.
- Life Long Londoner, London
Wrong question.
Better questions are
1) Who does Labour need to win back or over to win the election of 2012?
2) Who would be the best candidate to lead that campaign?
It is too early to answer those questions. It is not too early to see that the very high turnout is the strongest Tory areas was not Labour's only problem on 1 May 2008.
- Alan Griffiths, Forest Gate, LONDON. UK
Boy all these posts by Boris supporters make them look like the Darlek in Dr Who when he challenged it to say he had a plan...
The fact is once 2nd prference votes are counted Boris only scrspped through and in 2012 he will have to account for what he has or has not done.
Politically there are still 2 options - the first is the Cameron will be PM and Boris could then be the fall guy if Cameron mucks up; or Gordon Brown would have won the election and the Tory Party will once again be in dis-array and a fourth defeat could prove terminal given the rise of UKIP and who knows Vince Cable as Lib Dem Leader.
As for Ken he is a real Londoner born and bred and after his return as Mayor in 2000 many years after being GLC leader shows that "Comeback Ken" could still have a boom-a-rang in his step especially as the winner of 2012 will be Mayor when London holds the Olympics.
As for the C-Charge then as Ken says for many years this paper campaigned for a control on the congestion that was causeing daily gridlock and costing industry billions of pounds in lost time. Opponents complain about the C-Charge as a tax the fact is reduced congestion means more deliveries can be made without wasting time stuck in traffic.
What a pity Ken was not able to give an interview like this a year ago it might have saved London from the mess Boris is making (e.g 72 buses instead of 47 on route 38 imagine how much more it will cost to run this route let alone the extra roadspace reqd!)
- Melvyn Windebank, Canvey Island, Essex
I dont see any point in Ken competing for a place again. He had his stint and was exposed along with his staff. Initiatives that did not materialised yet budgeted for so long....
Lets spend money where it should be spent rather than overpaying staff who did not deliver to the tax paying public....
- Rav Kumar, London
In the last week we have heard that the grim, utterly incompetent Harriet Harman is jostling for position in the stakes to become next leader of the Labour party after their certain defeat at the next election; that Ed Balls is shoring up support for the same position; and now Livingstone feels he wants another stab at getting back into the position he so monumentally failed at over a disastrous 8 year period. Is delusional thinking a favoured pasttime for Labour Party deadbeats? It sure seems that way. Someone should tap Livingstone on the shoulder and quietly tell him his time is up, and that he will only embarrass himself if he puts himself up for election again. The man lacks dignity- please, someone tell him his time is up. For his sake and ours.
- Richard, London, UK
Give it a rest Ken ... and go on and do something else instead.
- Dhanraj, basildon
Please Ken, just leave us alone. Your ego is just too big and hence you can't let go. Please just bow out gracefully.
- Simon, London
What a deluded has-been Livingstone is. I'd rather have my 85 year old next-door neighbour who's lived all her life in one house in one anonymous London street as Mayor than have this monster back in power of any kind. He's done his damage. Just be gone Livingstone! Hang your head in shame not raise it above the parapet.
- Judith C, London, England
I shall be very happy never to hear of this man again.
- William, London
There's a surprise - not! Still, I can't see him getting back in. He understimated Boris last time, he still underestimates him and he'll underestimate him at the next election. The only people saying Boris is a disaster are those like Ken who never liked him. As someone who voted for him, I've been impressed with him on the whole. More importantly the public at large genuinely like the bloke, which is almost unknown for a politician. I don't think Ken understands that or understands why it's so. I bet he truly believes we'll all be penitently voting him back in.
- Kevin T, Beckenham
Yes, brilliant, run with Lee Grasper then a 2nd Boris term is nailed on.
- Undercover Elephant, London, UK
Good luck Ken and I hope to see you standing in 2012. Remeber Boris lovers a certain right wing party will not be asking their members to vote (2nd Preference) for Boris next time.
- Mat, London
Ken, even my Nulabour friends like Boris and do not want you back. If you think you would be re elected please dream on.
- Michael, London
Can you imagine how arrogant he'd be if he got back in? Even worse than before. For that reason alone he must not.
- Sarah Bradshaw, Enfield, Middx
id vote for him tommorow big mistake london made.
- C May, biggin hill
I suggest that Boris brings forward the plan to restrict mayors to only being able to do one term. That is the simpliest way to ensure that London is never blighted by Red Ken ever again.
- Tim, London
Fat chance! Is he the most deluded man in the world?
- Clare, London
Absolute proof he still lives in a world of his own. Is he bitter that the voters of London kicked him out and rightly so, i think so. Congestion charge and Bendy Buses are a failure. Boris is doing a great job.
- Tony, London
Ken, you had your second chance at public life and you blew it big time .... prepare for the remainder of your life in total anonymity (not necessarily a bad thing, except you'll have to earn your keep somehow)
- Marianne, SW France
I think a person would have to have the hide of a rhino to think they could make a comeback after being voted out. Please, man, try to preserve some of your dignity and go quietly now.
- M Salafrio, St John's Wood
But we don't WANT you back.
- Ken, Bexleyheath
God forbid!!
London will have years to get over the Ken legacy.
- John Whitby, Peterborough, Cambs
"My first job application was to London Zoo to be a zoo-keeper" Not that far different from Mayor of London!
- Fresh, London
Livingstone had his chance and he made a mess of it; he needs to come to terms with that and keep his nose out of London's affairs.
- Casper Slides, France at the moment
