Reader views (55)

 Add your view

Nice to see the government has its priorities right.

- Tony, san diego ca usa, 20/03/2009 14:12
Report abuse

Why does our government go to extremes before thinking it out ? why not let the pubs who do not serve food choose whether to allow smoking or not as does the system in Spain allows and works very well with smokers and non smokers alike

- Tony Peters, bishops stortford, 17/03/2009 17:04
Report abuse

The financial pressures on pubs are numerous. The smoking ban has had an undboubtedly devastating effect on many oubs. Others - likely fewer over all - have undoubtedly benfited from the ban. The duty escalator has forced pubs to increase prices which has only increased the price differential between the on trade and the off trade.

Underpinning all of these real financial pressures on pubs is the pernicious but hidden influence of the dominant pub companies who own the majority of the pub trade's bricks and mortar. Pubcos are the companieds that replaced brewers as the majority pub freeholders following the 1989 Beer Orders which were supposed to break the power of brewers and make a fairer, more competitive and diverse market develop.

In twenty years power has simply transferred from enormous brewers to enormous property companies who have no necessarily specific allegiance to any brewer. Pubcos own pubs and let them out to licensees who operate them as small businesses. The majority of pubs in Britain operate in this way, paying rent to pubco landlords and with lease obligations - the 'beer tie' - that oblige licensees to buy beer through their rent collector's wholesale supply chain at prices set by the pubco rather than by the market. Typically tied beer prices are double those of the freehouse trade.

Pubcos have massive debts secured on hugely overvalued property estates. They charge high rent and a lot for beer because they have to repay DEBT. Pubcos are killing pubs

- J Mark Dodds, Camberwell, London, 09/03/2009 00:58
Report abuse

In my posting yesterday I forgot to mention that life has changed considerably in the last 30 years.
We now have at home,wide screen televisions and PCs and mobile smart phones.
In the old days,people went to the pub to meet their mates and have a few pints and talk about the latest black outs due to the miners strike and I could call my mate what ever I liked without having the human rights
bozos screeming racist.
We could drink and smoke and nobody said a word.
There was the kneesup and a singalong and everybody was happy or nearly.

- David Nigel Braham, Milan Italy, 05/03/2009 14:44
Report abuse

Selwyn, round my way you couldnt even put a 5 metre exclusion round any of the pubs. Too many other buildings. Nothing wrong with smoking outside though, as hot air rises and all smoke goes upwards. Sounds like you should not be visiting a pub if you dont like smokers outside & drunks inside. Maybe a church or library would be better.

- Dom, London, 05/03/2009 14:41
Report abuse

A well run pub will always do well.Pubs that close are usually total dunps where only the drunken old sado's gather.There should also be a 500 metre exclusion zone around any pub or public area to stop filthy smokers huddling in stinking groups.Every bar or pub you go to these people all hang around the entrance areas.GO AWAY YOU STINK

- Selwyn Channon, epsom, 05/03/2009 11:48
Report abuse

I would rather own a share in a pub than a bank. Which is ironic, given that so many banks are now pubs or wine bars.

- Nobby Clark, Perth, Scotland, 05/03/2009 11:36
Report abuse

Traditional Pubs are in many ways outdated. We and our friends now go to cafes, restaurants out of preference rather than a claustrophobic dark sleasy pub. Of course there is a place for a pub and some of them are lovely (especially where they retain their old character, or offer good value like Wetherspoons). I just don't understand why we don't have Italian style 'bars' which offer drinks and coffee and food in a much more acceptable environment - and attract a cross section of society including families. We are all more demanding and quite frankly I have absolutely no desire to sit in a crowded noisy 'pub' frequented by mainly men and or yobs - or worse still drunks. Pubs really need to clean up their act and widen their target customer base.

- Barbara B, London, 05/03/2009 11:10
Report abuse

Decent pubs are as busy as ever. We should do more about shutting down the chav-houses and places were trouble kicks off every night. It's nothing to do with smoking ban, rubbish pubs should be allowed to close. If a landlord cares about his smokers there is plenty he can do for them. Smoke-free pubs are now wonderful, and my local is twice as busy as it used to be.

- John, Wapping, 05/03/2009 08:51
Report abuse

Demand instead a clawing back of basic individual choice re pub atmosphere etc. If people don't like smokey pubs then they will go elsewhere. If publicans want them back they will do something about it. How on earth did the choice become a right to exclude others?

I don't like smoke. I don't hang around in public facilities of any description where there is too much smoke. I still have an active social life, just the same as countless others. If the government was to stop micro-managing everyone's lives they would probably have more money, and a whole lot less animus both.

Encouraging people to stop smoking is a laudible aim. Ordering them to do so? Not the smartest application of sociological nous.

- Rogan, Irving, 05/03/2009 08:07
Report abuse

"the law of unexpected consequences has been well known for eons by all but those who aspire to lead."

Nope - its just that in their arrogance, they think it applies to 'the other guy' only. THEIR solution is always the 'right' solution; is always 'just' and 'equitable'.

And for the record, this applies to ALL politicians, not just those I don't agree with. The only way to keep them all at least semi-honest is to get on their backs and stay there until they get the idea on any given project/ ideological hobby-horse/ whatever. Leave them to their own devices and they will inevitably (ok - maybe only in all likelihood) take the wrong path.

- Rogan, Irving, 05/03/2009 07:39
Report abuse

"When you lose your pub's - you lose your England" !

Hillaire Beloc

- Wills, Soton, 05/03/2009 07:31
Report abuse

Not one person has mentioned he fact that the only place in the country you can have a drink and smoke legally here in Zanu Britain is the bars in the houses of Parliament. These oh so hypocritical tell the public they cannot smoke in any public place they are free to drink and smoke and laugh at the little people!

- Duncan Walker, Lucky to live in Thailand, 05/03/2009 02:57
Report abuse

For an economic genius like Mr Brown the answer should be obvious: after all, he's applying it elsewhere.
Quantitative Easing: give us all 500 free beer vouchers, and the drinking crunch will be solved!

- Mdj E10, london, uk, 04/03/2009 23:54
Report abuse

Of course it is purely and simply down to the smoking ban. More than 60% of pub customers pre-ban were smokers. 75% of smokers now visit a pub "less frequently" since the smoking ban. It isn't hard to work out why takings have dwindled. Pubs have survived (and often thrived) in previous recessions so that is no excuse.

My partner and I would generally visit a pub 3-4 times a week to meet friends and socialise prior to the ban. Nowadays it is more like once a month as we and our friends don't want to be in an environment which makes us feel like naughty schoolchildren. Sadly, it seems there will be a lot more pub closures ahead.

- Bob, London, 04/03/2009 23:23
Report abuse

Smoking is bad for your health and drinking alcohol in pubs is barbaric. It is about time time was called on pubs where people congregate to indulge in mass drug taking. Shut them all. Preferably with the customers still inside them. Then watch incidents of disturbance drop dramatically.

- James, Auckland NZ, 04/03/2009 23:00
Report abuse

The last time i went into a pub for a pint was on the very day that the smoking ban came into force,i paid 3 pounds for a pint the forgetting about the ban i put my hand in my pocket pulled out a fag packet put a ciggi in my mouth only to be screamed at by the landlord and told to get outside with that,as i smoked out side i thought to myself this will be the last time i ever go in a bar,I'm simply not going to be treated like that after paying 3 pound for a beer,I'm not able to relax and enjoy my pint and a ciggie.

- Kev, London-UK, 04/03/2009 22:31
Report abuse

As a non-smoker, I nonetheless am aware that the smoking ban has seriously damaged pubs. I sat on the London Assembly when the ban was introduced and made clear during one discussion a point that seems to have been missed in the debate since. In Ireland and Scotland, where the ban was first introduced, there is considerable more land around pubs where smokers (and their non-smoking friends) could be accommodated (but even there it has had an impact). However, in London, there is generally less space, as should have been obvious, which has meant that the impact would be greater. And it has. If you cannot smoke outside a pub as well as inside, then you will not go. I supported those pubs which chose to go non smoking in their own free market way (knowing that their customers might prefer it and it might improve business): sometimes, but not always, I want a smoke free environment. But compulsion was always going to lead to damage...and any economic slowdown reinforces the damage down by over-regulation. It's another barrier to business, and this is the outcome. But don't expect any politicians to come to your aid, except to make more rules and regulations, banning this and banning that, and ordering this and ordering that.

- Damian Hockney, London, UK, 04/03/2009 22:25
Report abuse

This crudely political 'sudden interest' in pub welfare is too little, and far far too late.
As with much of Labour led 'initiatives', a decade too late in fact.

Thousands of pubs have disappeared over McLabour's grossly negligent 'governance', on the long downward march towards Brown's Banana Republic.
So, so many communities blighted by the loss of banks and post offices and police stations and high streets and half of our dairy farms and now our pubs, and Labour really don't give a Tinkers!

Why will tourists want to come anymore?
Precisely, they won't want to bother if 'we' don't!

- Dave, Cumbria, 04/03/2009 21:51
Report abuse

Purely and simply closures are because of the socially excluding smoking ban.
I am friends with many people and none of us go to pubs any more. The smokers in our crowd won't tolerate standing out in the street to have a cigarette. The non smokers also don't go out to pubs as they are practically empty.
Us lady smokers are not prostitutes and a couple of my lady friends have been asked if they were 'doing business' while standing in the street to smoke. Needless to say they stay home now. All in all I would guess that my 'crowd' that used to go to the pubs consisted of around 50 people going out 3/4 times a week. As they probably spent an average of £50 per week each in pubs, that's a fair sum that would have kept the pubs open.
Will the government ever admit that they got it wrong and amend this spiteful ban.

- Sharon Dyer, Islington, 04/03/2009 19:25
Report abuse

The government can force smokers into "cattle pens" just because they can. They cannot force us to spend our money, that POWER belongs to US. It is the only POWER we have.
I along with many others, will holiday, where we are all welcome, so those Countries who have followed the same draconian, spiteful measures as the UK, will boycott.
Just like the pubs, who did not fight hard enough to want our custom. I am sorry they are caught between a rock and a hard place though.
Supermarket booze has always been cheaper,so people need to stop using that as an excuse. The antis wanted all the venues, they need to start using them.
Smoke-haters, were never banned from investing their OWN money into smoke-free venues, were they, they always had that choice!
Many smokers like myself, have non-smoking, husbands/wives/partners/friends and families.
freedom2choose.info for smokers and non-smokers alike, fighting for choice and TRUTH.
Please join us

- Mandyv, cambs, 04/03/2009 18:52
Report abuse

given that government/ council bureaucracy and legislation is largely responsible for the rapid demise of the pub; a social institution that has been around since earliest memory it's a bit late for the penny to drop.
our 'elected' leaders are mind bogglingly slow to appreciate the results of their ill conceived actions.
the law of unexpected consequences has been well known for eons by all but those who aspire to lead.

- M.O'Brien, london.uk, 04/03/2009 17:58
Report abuse

To Chas.
The reason the place in Brussels was packed and beer costs over a fiver is probably because the patrons are all employed by the EU Commission on exhorbitant taxpayer funded salaries, pensions and expenses. If you have the ready cash it doesn't matter what the cost of beer, petrol or any other commodity is.

- Pat, South London, 04/03/2009 17:57
Report abuse

I do not think the smoking ban has caused many pubs to close. Bar one where the owners put up the rent so much that the pub was no longer viable all the others I have seen close have done so due to a lack of customers. Sometimes this is because of OTT pricing and ripping off anyone that wants a soft drink. The main reason is often the landlord/lady and/or staff. If you are paying around £3 per pint you do not want slow sloveny service. One pub I know looked like it was going to the wall. It is now run by a new team and is thriving. Like restaurants pubs that offer friendly service and accetable value for money will survive.

- Michael, London, 04/03/2009 17:56
Report abuse

Seperate rooms with seperate ventilation systems should be allowed. I am a non smoker and beleive this, however, if this is done it must be done correcly so second hand smoke is not circulated in non smoking area. I would imagine this would cost the bar a considerable amount of money to install and should be overseen by local councils with special permits and inspections.

- Brandon Thomas, SW7, London UK, 04/03/2009 17:41
Report abuse

This is a direct result of the smoking ban ! Any sensible freedom-loving government would have allowed a smoking saloon and a non-smoking saloon but that wasn't enough for the health fascists of course !

- Kathy Doyle, London, 04/03/2009 17:06
Report abuse

The was nothing wrong with having a seperate room for smokers. But obviously not under this dictatorship. So we have now left the pubs to the non smokers and their prams. Enjoy.

- John Smith, London , England, 04/03/2009 16:40
Report abuse

This Government is destroying pubs, so now it should help them.

- Vince, London, 04/03/2009 16:23
Report abuse

If the companies who own the pubs didnt charge exorbitant rental prices for them they might survive.

- Rosie-Cayman Islands, Cayman Islands, 04/03/2009 16:06
Report abuse

David of Milan. I went to Brussels in January and despite a pint costing over a fiver the pubs were packed. Why? Because smoking was allowed.

- Chas, Little Britain, 04/03/2009 15:40
Report abuse

It is not only the smoking problem,but also the cost.
Here in Milan,I can buy a beer in a pub/bar for Euros 3,50.in the supermarket I can buy the same beer for Euros 1.97,the differance is there are two beers not one.
So,two beers in a pub/bar euros 7.00 at home euros 1.97.
What a differance,250%

- David Nigel Braham, Milan Italy, 04/03/2009 14:46
Report abuse

Dom - spot on

I don't smoke, my wife does. Since our local 'smokeasy' changed hands (now 100% law abiding) we very rarely go out. Nothing to do with prices, nothing to do with complying with the law (we try to avoid having to, unlike the real 'passive' smokers - stupid smokers who have meekly swallowed all the ASH/NHS propaganda). Consequently, the licence trade is £1500 - £2000 down. I don't how much exactly - I never kept a log book on pub outgoings.... it's not about money for those of us who are mourning the demise of a once great British institution and tradition.

As for those who think pubs are better - you're welcome to them, but make the most of them while you can....

- David B, Lincs, 04/03/2009 14:15
Report abuse

It isn't just the smoking ban, though this hasn't helped. It's the fact that so many pubs are so boring nowadays. The good pubs are as popular as ever. Good pubs are ones where the service is good, the decor is pleasant, the prices are competitive, the choice of drinks is good and the music or entertainment is also good. Unfortunately, too any publicans seem to think that if they open up or convert a nice old fashioned boozer into a trendy gastro pub, hire a load of miserable bar staff and offer all the high street beers at exorbitant prices and shove a juke box in one corner and Sky Sports screen in the other, their pub will be a success and they will be rolling in money!

- Matt, London UK, 04/03/2009 14:14
Report abuse

I smoke when I drink, I drink 3-4 times a week in a pub smoking ban or no, and yes I have noticed the rise of people bringing children into the pub with them, and yes it is irritating but frankly if a pub can't garner the clientele then it should close. Most of my local pubs are heaving with chavs which make them utterly intolerable to drink in but not one of them seems to have a problem getting bums on seats.

- Bob, Cheam, 04/03/2009 14:13
Report abuse

A business should not be saved by the government - If they are good enough they will survive . If there is no longer a need they will go to the wall.

- Terry, Hennebont France, 04/03/2009 14:10
Report abuse

Anti-smokers say that the majority should rule. Therefore if the majoriy in a pub decide to allow smoking inside, they should be allowed to, with ventilation.

- Chas, Little Britain, 04/03/2009 14:10
Report abuse

To deny the fact that the smoking ban has been the cause of the carnage in the pub trade is laughable. To ignore it is either foolish or devious. Will John Grogan or Dawn Primarolo give it the time of day during the 'pub crisis talks'???

- Andy, UK, 04/03/2009 13:51
Report abuse

This is nothing to do with smoking this Crash Gordon's doing and his alone - he is a greedy money grabbing wastrel the sooner we get rid of him and his croney's the better

- Edriordan, wisbech, 04/03/2009 13:51
Report abuse

Bring back the smoking, and you will start to see the pubs busy again.

- Theresa, Cardiff, 04/03/2009 13:27
Report abuse

Why on earth would anybody think the government should be involved in the pub industry? If we need a community meeting place then surely we can pick somewhere the whole community want to go rather than somewhere predominately drunk men congregate. Also Brown and Co. have made such a pig's ear of evrything else they've touched do you really believe they'll improve this...???

- Mark, London, 04/03/2009 13:25
Report abuse

Surely this is as much about the recession as anything? People are choosing to buy in booze and have get togethers in their own homes rather than spend a fortune doing the same thing in pubs. Sure, people still go to pubs, but I'm sure they are not going as frequently as they were before - when two drinks cost the best part of a tenner it's hardly surprising.

- Isabel, Woking, 04/03/2009 13:21
Report abuse

I went down my local last night and for Januray/February they put my pint of bitter down by 20p - Now in March they have put the price up to what it was plus ANOTHER 5p !!. The pub is empty. (And yes the smoking ban has killed it as 80% of people that used to smoke/drink now stay in and we do not see them anymore)

- Grim Reaper, Hell, 04/03/2009 13:17
Report abuse

To all those that state "its rubbish that the smoking ban has resulted in pubs closing". I smoke, can afford to drink in pubs, but since the smoking ban, have hardly visited a pub. Stand outside if you want to smoke. No thanks, I'd prefer to sit at home, invite friends round, who also do not go in pubs now there is no smoking, stock up on booze, and smoke when ever I want without being told/nagged that this is a no smoking venue.

That is just me & my friends. I am sure there are plenty of others who do exactly the same as me.

Conclusion. Smoking ban has stopped me visiting pubs.

- Dom, London, 04/03/2009 12:41
Report abuse

Why do smoke haters such as John ALWAYS deny that the the ban has not had a serious effect?

Weren't these the same economic 'experts' who had convinced themselves, the public and the government that pubs would thrive post July 2007?

OK, drinks have increased slightly in price in pubs, but pubs were always more expensive than supermarket booze. People go (or don't) to pubs for many reasons. Why is everything gauged according to cost? You may as well buy ready made meals from a supermarket rather than eat out.
In London, for example, the cost of alcohol in many pubs/clubs would make anyone north of Watford blanche. This has always been the case, yet these places survived pre ban.

And how do they explain the dramatic demise of social clubs, where drink is still very cheap (at least in those that are clinging on....)

Some people simply do not understand pub culture, probably because they very rarely frequent them, now or when smoking was permitted. It's about social interaction, relaxation and quality service. Now, most places are not fit for purpose. That's why they're closing.....

- David B, Lincs, 04/03/2009 12:36
Report abuse

I too agree with Neil M.
Pubs are places for the average man to go and drink, smoke and swear in relative peace and comfort.
I HATE seing babies in pubs; why oh why bring them in?
Also, I'd like to see food limited to sandwiches and sausage rolls.
Pubs are to drink in, not to take your brattish family for lamb shanks in redcurrant jus.

- Anthony, Esher, Surrey, 04/03/2009 12:28
Report abuse

I know one pub in Richmond, with a leaking roof, tape holding the carpet together, creaky floor-boards, and the air-con stopped working years ago. To add to that it has now stopped showing football. Despite this, and the competition in such an affluent area, it is still open and doing quite well.

- Mark H, London England, 04/03/2009 12:06
Report abuse

The market analysts AC Nielsen who monitor 10,000 drinking establishments put 50%-80% of pub closures down to the smoking ban.

- Dave Atherton, London, Luke Warm Britain, 04/03/2009 11:38
Report abuse

Utter nonsense. It is the Government swingeing taxes that is killing the pub. The smoking ban has arguably made pubs far more pleasant places to visit. But for the prices charged for a drink, that is why the pub is in decline

- John Bloomfield, Twickenham, 04/03/2009 11:29
Report abuse

If they ignore the obvious smoking ban then their concern is meaningless. It needs to be amended pronto if the demise of our pubs is to be halted. What's wrong with smoking pubs or smoking rooms? Give us the choice so that everyone is catered for - just like you stated in your 'meaningless' manifesto.
Your demands for a 'pub rescue scheme' will only be treated with the sniggers it deserves if you don't address this obvious issue.

- Helen, Lancashire, 04/03/2009 11:05
Report abuse

What a load of old rubbish to claim that the smoking ban has resulted in all these pub closures. The plain fact is, is that taxation on beer and alcohol, high rents and council business taxes are the real reasons why pubs are closing in record numbers. A substantial reduction in all of the above would result in pubs becoming profitable and remaining open. But this wont be allowed to happen because of the biased, flawed and very selective recommendations from the BMA on alcohol abuse and underaged drinking, to pressure groups representing alcoholics. Not all of us abuse alcohol and become alcoholics or violent after a couple of drinks. Such peope are in a very small minority and their actions and behaviour should not be used to ban the rest of us who enjoy the sociable pastime of 'going down to the pub' to meet friends and enjoy a social life.

- Pete, South of England, 04/03/2009 11:03
Report abuse

Quote "Banning smoking is the worst thing that's ever happened to pubs. Now, pubs are full of kids and babies, where they don't belong."

Is the reason that they start drinking early in life?

I agree with Neil M, they should not be allowed in pubs.

- C Cusano, Bedford, 04/03/2009 11:00
Report abuse

Oh well thats the nanny state for you, smoking and drinking is bad for you. But then Government never undertakes the risk fact in making such decisions. The risk in this case is destroying the community hubs.

- Tony Islander, Herts, 04/03/2009 10:57
Report abuse

The government don't want the pubs to stay open. The don't want you congregating and discussing politics and what a rubbish job they're doing. If we all got together and started discussing how many freedoms were being taken away.. more of the electorate would wake up to this government. The Labour Government want you quietly in your homes, where they know where you are or they'd have to get the army out sooner rather than later!

- Nanny Simmonds, Hertfordshire, 04/03/2009 10:40
Report abuse

...but can anyone name a single nice, successful pub that has shut down? We hear about a local pub going, and usually it's a good thing that it's gone too.

- Martin H. Watson, Teddington, 04/03/2009 10:40
Report abuse

Banning smoking is the worst thing that's ever happened to pubs. Now, pubs are full of kids and babies, where they don't belong.

- Neil M., london uk,, 04/03/2009 10:28
Report abuse

Add your comment