• Watchdog is given G20 brutality dossier from 400 witnesses

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As somebody who has peacefully attended football matches the length and breadth of the UK since the mid/late 70s the behavior of the police does not come as any surprise.

- Mark, South-East London

It is wrong to blame the actions "of a few individuals".
If this was the case then we would have seen the dozen or so officers surrounding Ian Tomlinson when he was assaulted, step in to protect and assist him. But they didn't they scoffed at him. This shows that these actions were par for the course on the day.
There is a suggestion that this behavior was condoned by senior officers. Watch the video of the police removing the press so they can "resolve the situation (crack heads)" There is an officer in the background with his badge clearly covered, he is standing no more than 10 ft from what looks like a very senior officer in a white cap. There is also a shoot at the very end of another policeman with his badge covered he is about 3ft from the senior officer addressing the press.
These images show that the acceptance of unreasonable force is all encompassing within the the Met. Not the actions of a few individuals.

- James, Wellington, New Zealand

I was a Met Officer in the 1990's, when this so called "safety approach" crept in. When new equipment and clothing seemed to be issued every six months. Of course the 1990's in London was a much different place to what it is today and the threat from the PIRA was very real. Incidents like the 1992 shooting of PC Glenn Goodmann in Yorkshire or the 1997 stabbing of PC Nina MacKay, helped changed the general attitude. It didn't happen overnight. The Prevention of Terrorism act gave us a sweeping power to stop and search anyone and you did so under the premise that the next stop could indeed by a terrorist and that affected everything you did. Police officers would do well to be reminded that most people only encounter the police on average twice in their lives. The impression they get from those two encounters they carry with them throughout their lives. It was something I was painfully aware of during my service having it it drummed into me at Hendon. But in the end aggressive police tactics or not, I was stabbed eleven times by a sixteen year old who objected to being arrested for a street robbery and that put an end to my career.

- Jeremy Lawrence, Barcelona, Spain

The vital public ability to protest against official subjugation (political, religious or otherwise) is a chief characteristic of any fair society. When we lose this great gift, or it is taken from us by force of arms, we become a despotic system of intolerance and hate. Human nature is such that the current bishops and the barons will always give the shrewd illusion of freedom to us, but an illusion is all that it is. Breach their sacred code and you become a target for their unwanted concern and later on for their suppression. Times and uniforms may change but authoritarian powers and the essence of human hierarchy always remains the same.

Pat Regan. Author of Dirty Politics, The New Pagan Handbook and other titles

- Pat Regan, southport

I could of course be wrong, Peter Haldane - but a 'Skipper' IS a sergeant in the police force, just as an Inspector is referred to as 'Guv', or 'Governor'. They are in-house terms for the ranks. You see it in all of the older police series on TV - but my own brother (ex-career Met - and no, I have no idea what he thinks about all of these goings on) used the terms also.

If you're going to use semantic play on words to make a negative suggestion out of nothing, you really should do a little research first.

- Rogan, Irving

I am puzzled as to why the Royal Bank of Scotland windows were not boarded up as other buildings were. Such large inviting windows - was this deliberate on behalf of the authorities to stir up trouble?

- J. Terry, London, England

I normally support the police however there have always been some in the job who shouldn't be there because of their personnel attitude to some elements of our society they should be removed from the police service if they cannot act in a professional manner on ALL occasions.

- Mike Melbourne, Bedford England

If it is indeed true that the Met regard the public as 'the enemy' they need to realise quickly that they are public servants, and that we pay their wages.

- Mark Burton, St. Ives. Cambs

Having been on many demonstrations over many years, we never had a real problem, even when things got passionate and verged on the violent. We treated these people with humour, and even when it got nasty, there were never violence from police, it was very rare we had to use truncheons. todays vcoppers seem to be very nervous, more like para-military. I was in the Met. They really make me wonder what has happened to my force. I have been retired for many years, but despair of senior officers lack of having done duty on the streets.

- John Hamilton, st.ives Cornwall

M Farbiash- how on earth do you know that the majority of the people there were hooligans? Where you there? Because I was, and no, I wasn’t there to protester or hooligan, I work there so I had no choice. I can maybe enlighten you that the vast majority of people were orderly and peaceful and there to protest, and I couldn’t give a hoot what about, or there lifestyle choice, that should be their right. Whilst the majority of the aggression was coming from the police who seemed to want to provoke a reaction… run that one past your “normal society” and see what they make of it, if they are not to busy fretting about pot smoking, long haired hippy freaks that is!

- Nj, London

More bull and denial from a sycophant!

We know that those (and there are many) police who cross the so called line will be NOT be dealt with. there will be continued cover ups and lies and denials.

The Met and other forces are a disgrace. The seniors are mediocre and self serving the rank and file are useless.

They are servants only. They serve us the public. But we know they do not have the faintest notion what service is.

Everyone knows of harassment and victimisation, of refusals to be helpful and so on. the police need to be sacked and those reemplyed should understand they are there to help the community.

Stop recruiting from lower working classes or from brainless graduates. Find a middle way of intelligence and compassion and courage, not with corruption thuggery.

- Gordon, walton UK

When you are treated as an enemy, it isn't entirely unusual that you consider such treatment as having come from enemies - and yes, I am deliberately using the argument that is used against the police, but in their defence.

It's a chicken and egg thing. It is also something that anarchists use to foment unrest and uncertainty when they hijack legitimate protest.

- Rogan, Irving

Most of the people at the G20 protests were using foul, abusive, threatening language to intimidate and provoke the police. "Peaceful" protestors? - then why were a proportion of them dressed like terrorists (blackened faces, balaclavas etc) - and why was my mother, innocently and ignorantly up in Town for the day to do some shopping frightened by a bunch of them shoving her aside? They are trouble making scum and frankly the police have my 100% support in whatever measures they choose to take against them.

- Sally Anne, Hove UK

If you as an officer stand beside someone who does these things, be it at the G20 demos or when a few boxes of fags are thrown in the back of a police car after a corner shop robbery, you are also guilty by association. If I stand by and allow a friend of mine to beat someone up or kill them I am held by the law to be equally culpable. This view that permeates the top ranks that "it is only a few bad-uns" is totally wrong. The police force is one in which the good apple is in the tiny minority and the rest are rotten to the core. Time to chuck them away and start again if they will not face this simple fact. The use of "specials" to police demos should be done away with. I'd rather have ten dead cops than one dead protester, this is what you are supposed to believe in a democratic society where the right to peaceful protest is seen to be well worth the risk of some demos turning into police killing fields. If you as a police officer or if your friends and family don't believe this you should not be in the police force. Servants come second to the master and it is long past time senior officers pointed this out and sacked without pension rights any and all within the ranks who disagree. This is not a debating society, not in the police force at any rate. Senior officers must read their men and women the riot act and that includes no job and no pension if you disagree, welcome to the real world boys and girls.

- John, Aberdeen, UK

It is time to look outside for senior police officers. The first place to look would be in the ranks of retiring senior military officers, who are educated people of high calibre with experience of running a highly disclipined organisation.
They are unfailingly impressive when interviewed unlike senior police officers, whiom I wouldn't rely on to tell me the time.

- Richard Munton, tonbridge kent

- Reuben Camara, Morecambe UK,

Police State? Are you for real, or were you one of the agitators? Or maybe you're just very, very young and have never set foot out of Morecambe yet? Whichever one it is, your remarks are very silly, the UK is nothing like a Police state. If and when you ever visit one you will quickly see that.

- Lynn, St Albans, Hertfordshire, England

To Nj of London - I didn't mention "Protestors" because I wasn't talking about Protestors, I was talking about anarchists. I am all for peaceful democratic protest, I have been on three different marches in my life for your information. What I object to is hooligans, which is what a lot of these people were. I think if you ask around in normal society you will find that the vast majority of people share my feelings on these matters. And to clarify, when I say "normal society" I don't mean people like Nicola Fisher. I mean people who haven't burned out their braincells with drugs, people who live in homes rather than squats, people who are able to hold down jobs rather than just going from one disgusting hippy music festival to another, do you get my drift now?

- M Farbiash, Highgate

To Gary from Saltash - No one is saying people shouldn't have the right to protest. What we are objecting to is the criminal element creating mischief and mayhem, which is what they would have been doing had the Police given them the chance 3 weeks ago. I for one do not believe any of those now whingeing about Police brutality are whiter than white. Policemen on the whole are not fools, unlike the likes of Nicola Fisher et al.

- Jane Snookes, Bromley, UK

I cant believe the silly remak made by MARY, AVEBURY If it was supposed to be a peaceful demonstration why should the bank be boarded up and guarded. The fact that someone wants to demonstrate does not mean that they have a right to damage property , whatever they are demonstrating about

- Lee, bradford

M Farbiash- I won’t stoop to retort directly to your petty personal insults questioning my intelligence but if you think a small amount of graffiti caused by a idiot minority is a major crime that calls for indiscriminate police violence then I don’t think you’re in any position to call other people naïve. Also you make me wonder what kind of person wants to live in a society that condemns protesters as parasites, do you not think freedom of speech is worth preserving, even if you don’t agree with the principle? It doesn't seem so, but maybe you think freedom of speech should only be the preserve of those you agree with? Do not see any irony in using a comments section of a news website to decry others who chose to exercise their right of free speech?

- Nj, London

A better question would be "do the public see the police as the enemy)? These ultra leftists go to protest about the G20 summit and take their anger out at the police, who have nothing to do with it. The police then protect themselves from these socialist nutters and then they, the police, are made out to be the problem, utter horse manure!

- Nick Nack Paddy Mac, London UK

Yes controlling public opinion, and crowds of protesters, is always a top government requirement etc; to all the authorities, the main criteria, is maintaining the status quo by any means available etc.

The vote for women would not have been granted without the suffragettes protesting about the injustices of sexism, where only rich men having the right to vote, even working class men never had the right to an equal vote; at one stage not so long ago.

Then we have Brian Haw in Parliament Square; Tony Blair did his best to silence him; and it is now an offence for anyone else to protest around Parliament today.

Labour has tried very hard to quell free speech and human rights; that were hard fought for in the past by many legions of British People, over centuries; they failed with Brian Haw; thanks to new laws not being retrospective etc; but they did try to silence him; this is the calibre of modern new labour, and its members.

I have always been a labour voter; so it is hard for me to admit the plain truth as it stands today; but New Labour has killed the Labour Party for ever now.

More than ever in our history, the British people need to stand up and fight back, or we will all end up forever under the control of dictators and despots.

Brian Haw for instance; is still under constant harassment by the State; and the State Police Force; yet he is peaceful and law abiding.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance; the choice is yours.

- Mickyinlondon, london

Nj, London - Vandalising historic monuments is disgraceful. If I saw any of that I would have felt like doing more than giving the mindless idiots more than a slap. Police were there in those numbers because they knew what these morons had planned and it is thanks to them that things weren't a great deal worse. Why anyone would give these parasites the benefit of the doubt is beyond me. You're either very, very naive or very, very stupid.

- M Farbiash, Highgate

The morphing of our police force into a self-contained self-regarding army did not start with the control freak left or new labour; it started when Margaret Thatcher used them in her war against the miners. The sins of Blair and Brown have been those of maintaining it.
We now maintain an unequal society - both major parties support personal advancement to the point of power and greed. Fat cats rule, OK!
Is there any solution? Good policemen, good nurses, good teachers need a new 'voice'. Hopeless to look to the press, I assume.

- Mike Freeman, Denbigh, Wales

You can tell the people who have been on the wrong side of the Law commenting on here.

Funny really, because from the images on the media I got the distinct impression that a certain bank was trashed and there were loads of other violent incidents.

Perhaps the police did all that and the media colluded and it is all a big conspiracy?

You want to defend that kind of behaviour, I dare any one of you to go and protest in China for instance. Perhaps one of the EU Mediterranean countries might take your fancy? Good luck in any case, you wont last long.

- Frank, Home Counties, England.

The public and the country get the police force it deserves. The country voted in a Labour government which has introduced oppressive legislation, Terrorism Act etc, restricting peaceful demonstration. A naive media and public focus on some money grabbing crusty for getting a whack across the legs. For her Christmas came early as she is allegedly £50,000 better off. Meanwhile PC Gary Toms, 37, reportedly shot after investigating a burglary/robbery in East London earlier this week has died (The Times 20April)and there is barely a mention in the Press. We need some perspective here. If some of these protestors had acted the way they did in Italy or France a bruise on the thigh would have been the least of their problems

- Bill, Hereford, UK

- Pam, East Kent: But how do you know they were the wrong people getting whacked? If these people are anarchists it stands to reason they are going to claim they were doing nothing wrong just to cause trouble for the Police. I am not saying the Police are perfect but it seems unlikely to me that every one of these persons whose insisting they were doing nothing wrong is telling the truth. My own opinion is that the troublemakers have probably been kicking themselves ever since letting themselves get coralled like that and so are taking this opportunity to cause trouble in a different way as a consolation prize. I have been on a few marches in my time and never seen anyone come to any harm at the Police's hands. If what the complainants were saying was true, then wouldn't the Police be attacking innocent people at every large gathering they attend? I expect some bright spark will now pipe up with "But they do!" or something similar but you know they don't do anything of the sort.

- G Miegl, Hampstead

Totally agree with C Roberts - the police have done a great job in hugely difficult circumstances. If the protests were peaceful they wouldn't need to be there in the first place. A good proportion of protestors were out to cause criminal damage, looking for a fight or at least trying to provoke a reaction - too bad a few more didn't get a slap.

- Chris, London

I applaud Mr Gilbertson and hope that the reviews that take
place do indeed ensure that the police leaders of the next decades do
not treat the public as the enemy.

I know it is not easy. These days provide many new threats
to the police force, like the massive expansion of global crime and
the influx of ruthless gangs from eastern europe, russia and
elsewhere. But the protesters should not be lumped in with them as
deserving brutal treatment.

I was there and what I saw was police following a coordinated plan. Not a few random bad apples. Our officers are being used and now copping the blame that should lay much higher up.

I don't think a witch hunt attitude is healthy at all. The real
culprits are not the officers themselves but whoever had sent out the
orders to terrorise and crush dissent. This is an ongoing tactic. Brutality, covering numbers is nothing new. The policing of the climate camp last year was equally as shocking where 1,400 officers were bent on terrorising and intimidating around 1,500 protesters for a week at the cost of 5.3 million of the public's money.

Lee from Bradford: Why do you think a bank in the middle of the protest was left
unguarded and unboarded?

Don't blame the individual police officers, look to their handlers,
Gold Command, the home secretary. The government, as in the USA, is
terrified of dissent and has decided to crush it rather than address
what decent, ordinary people have to say. This is simply political policing. Don't be fooled.

- Mary, avebury wiltshire

We all have an interest in the defence of public order and we can't expect the police to provide this if they are personally vulnerable to injury. But I don't think the public wants introduction here of some of the crowd-control techniques that have proved so effective elsewhere such as Soviet and Chinese style use of tanks or Ohio National Guard and Thai Police use of live ammunition. It is right for public protest to begin now against escalation in the use of batons and shields as offensive weapons, because, historically, verbal protest against tanks and bullets has proved to be ineffective.

- Bloke, London

Thugs don't follow football clubs anymore they simply join the police and get paid for beating people up.

The police need a short sharp shock to prove they are not above the law.

- Ian, London

if you go to a demonstration you must expect what comes your way , demonstrations are riddled with activists hell bent on causing trouble and have nothing to with the cause they're allegedly there for. live with it.

- Rosie, watford

C. Roberts, London. I agree with your comments to a certain extent. However, vandalising landmark statues and other monuments was not the work - nor the intention - of the peaceful protesters. Unfortunately, the police always go for the soft targets and "whack" the wrong people, and the actual perpetrators of these acts get away with it. And then they (the police) lie.

- Pam, East Kent UK

Dear Jezza - I can hardly type straight for laughing at your comments! Lucky you live in a twee place like Richmond if you consider the Police's behaviour "Ultra Violent". If you think the British Police "Ultra Violent", then what terms would you use to describe the behaviour of Police in countries like China, Russia, Brazil, tell me that? There may be a few bad apples in the barrel but on the whole our Police are fantastic and you should not be tarnishing the reputation of the lot with the actions of a few. If they keep getting criticised like this, just for smacking people (who, in my opinion, more than likely deserved it) then sooner or later they are going to up the ante and bring out tear gas and stuff. Then people will look back at these times and realise how lucky there were.

- Tl, London

CRoberts- I work in the City too and I haven't seen any of this graffiti, but in any case how do you know that Nicola Fisher was responsible for it? Or is anyone at a protest fair game for a "whack" from a police officer even if they are acting peacefully in your view? Do you think some minor vandalism is an excuse for excessive violence? Maybe one day there will be an issue you feel passionate about and that you want to protest about, and maybe you'll get a whack from a police officer too, how would you feel then?

- Nj, London

Left wing loonies follow communist party beliefs that both the armed forces and the police are not needed in their ideal communist world. Unfortunately, communism tends towards greater controls and now it should not be too long before all emails and telephone call are passed through the 'KGB' switchboard in 10 Downing St to be monitored and controlled for the greater benefit of the state.

Ever noticed that the protests against the police and the armed forces tend to appear to be orchestrated by the Labour Government supporting left-wing socialist type groups?

- Joe, Thornton Heath, UK

They delight in the title police "officer" so they should not be expected to behave as one!

Could you imagine this state of affairs being tolerated in any of the UK military services? Sir Paul Stephenson gives a direct order that Identifying numbers must be warned at all times by officers in uniform and it is simply ignored! This is considered mutiny in the military and results in immediate suspension from duty and imprisonment. Why should the police be treated any differently?

- Manny Goldstein, London, UK

when confronted with violent, aggressive and insulting behaviour and a refusal to obey legal commands I feel that it is justified to use minimum force to restore order if this means using a baton or cs gas so be it. In other contries they use much more severe means of controlling mob violence. In case anybody says it was a peaceful demo , who were breaking the bank windows?

- Lee, bradford england

I suspect the police have been using ultra aggressive tactics for years in the belief that they could get away with it through lack of evidence. Thank goodness for mobile phone cameras - and it's also one in the eye for the anti CCTV campaigners. The amount of camera supervision now means that the police will know that almost anything they do will be recorded on camera, which is the ultimate deterrent.

- Jezza, Richmond, Surrey

It is not that surprising that the rank and file police do what they do. Its the bureucratisation of the police service after 11 or so years of Neues Liebore ZaNuLab screwing everything up with their paranoia to 'control everything'. After all, the police will only reflect the attitudes of the current government. Under Blair and Brown this has gotten worse. The Government (ie:- ZaNuLab) treat the public with contempt, and like Thatcher before them, beleive themselves to be the 'Masters of the Universe'.

All UK governments in recent years who have a massive parliamentry majority will do as they like, and they do. We saw this with Conservatives under Thatcher, and its no different with Zanulab under Blair and now Pa Broone. Possibly even worse in some respects when all the 'Anti Civil Liberties' and 'Abolish Parliament' legislation that has been passed is also taken into account.

The sooner this bunch of closet Marxist control-freaks are abolished, the better. But somehow, will the Conservatives be any different in power with a large majority??

- Uncle Vanya, East Anglia Area UK

If effective police leaders are not being developed within the force, and clearly they are not as the police involved in the recent disorder in London showed when they referred to the Sergeant accused of assaulting the young woman as 'The Skipper' (no inspectors around it seems), then they should be provided with leaders from external sources. There are still ex Army officers around with experience of large scale and largely successful crown control in Northern Ireland let alone ex RUC officers.

- Peter Haldane, London

George Orwell must be turning in his grave....1984 is alive and kicking.

The police FORCE is out of control, we cannot move without being watched by cameras and we have laws that allow our police FORCE to arrest people on suspicion and by being guilty by association .... scary times

- Lb, London

It is NOT within the mandate of sworn police officers to go around slapping people around the face or whacking their legs and thighs with batons, for no other reason than these peeps are embracing their statutory democratic right to peaceful protest.

From what I saw of the G20 farce, it was THE POLICE who were intent on causing violence, not the demonstrators.

Unfortunately, like everything else the police do, it is well over the top - the public are now the enemy. The public are being made to live in fear. Being controlled and watched at every turn.

THE UK IS A POLICE STATE GONE MAD.

People living in Third World banana republics in Africa have more RIGHTS than peeps in the UK have.

- Reuben Camara, Morecambe UK

At last a voice of commonsense. To understand why the police service is where it is today you need to turn the clock back to the miners strike. When the strike was over the police service did not revert to their previous consensual style of policing; but hiding behind good old Health and Safety, officers were issued with stab proof vests, extending batons, CS spray, tasar guns etc. Increasing numbers of officers are also openly carrying guns on the streets of Britain. We have now got so used to all of this that we now accept it as the norm. Carrying all this equipment and being only too willing to use it, has resulted in a very aggressive police service. If you police in an aggressive manner then the response back will be aggressive. Its a downwards spiral until someone applies the brakes. Labour has given the police service an awful lot of money; but as always there is no such thing as a free lunch. The pay off has been a very politically aligned police service with police chiefs regarding the political leaders of this country as their masters and not the people they police. Unfortunately also I think too many of our young officers have been watching too many police programmes on the tele for their own good. They are fictional, policing is a career and done the right way is a very rewarding job.The terrible incidents of the G20 may be a blessing in disguise. I just hope they become a wake up call to the police service that enough is enough and now is the time for change.

- Brian Gare, Norfolk Gorleston

Do we still really have the right to protest without getting beaten up by thug coppers?

- Gary, Saltash

To anyone who doesn't work in the City as I do and is defending scum like Nicola Fisher who caused so much trouble earlier this month, you might like to know that the graffiti these people did is still visible on many of our old statues. Now you tell me if that is the handiwork of decent, law abiding people and just what it has got to do with protesting about anything. I am not surprised if the Police feel compelled to whack a few of them if they do things like that.

- C Roberts, London

How rich of a retired senior officer to criticise todays crop - many of whom would have been fairly young in service when the likes of Mr Gilbertson were running the show. He's from a generation of senior officers that lacked the backbone to protect their own troops - leaving the British policeman with nothing but a wooden peg to defend themselves with against hardened criminals, and failing to have the guts to send in the baton gunners who were on standby at Broadwater Farm, even when shots were fired and even when a Pc was murdered. All for the sake of image and tradition. No wonder he talks about "safety first" so dismissively, the lives and welfare of the cops on the ground clearly come last for him.

- S Stander, London

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