• Survivor: I just feel guilty at surviving while neighbours have died
• Firefighter: 'We just couldn't get to some people in time we lost them'

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i live just across the road from lakanal and i have to say that on the tragic day all emergency services deserve medals everyone put themselves out to assist help and rescue as many of the tenants as possible . the time for recriminations and fault finding is not now . we all have to look into our hearts and support the tragic victims families at this time .All the its the design fault or its this and that and whys and why nots dont help right now .So for the sake of the community i think we should hold a minutes silence to remember and pray for everyone involved ...

- David, london, england

Southwark Council has confirmed the windows were metal, not PVC-U as Mr Webb erroneously states. Also PVC-U windows do not behave in fires how Mr Webb describes. They have a good fire safety record. They do not melt as he says. They char. This inhibits the spread of fire. A high chlorine content acts as a retardant. PVC is used in a number of applications where fire retardancy is of the utmost importance - e.g. cable ducting. Also, remove the flame and PVC will stop burning. My condolences to those who have suffered loss.

- Jan Comer, London

Hats off to the firefigthers who tackled this horrific blaze.... & SHAME on those of you who are dissing them.

- John, Camberwell

Firefighters claim to have saved 40 lives at this fire.
Why have none of these 40 people spoken to the press about their 'rescue'.
Will it turn out that these rescues consisted of the fire brigade giving people permission to walk down the stairs?
I would have thought that anyone who was genuinely rescued would be happy to let the world know who saved them.
This figure of 40 rescues smacks of fire brigade 'spin'.

- Mo, Ealing UK

The firefighters at this incident will be tearing themselves apart because they couldn't get up there to save the poor people who lost their lives. I have experience of this. Please don't attack them as individuals because each and every one of them would be willing to place their life on the line to save others. I have lost friends who were doing exactly that.

However, there is no doubt - red tape and protocols (H&S) along with a distinct lack of equipment (height access appliances and extended duration breathing apparatus on front-line pumps) and a lack of training in this type of incident led to a failure to reach victims and other trapped occupants.

This type of incident has occurred on multiples of occasions across the UK over the past ten years. In the other cases they were near misses. London, Essex, Kent, Manchester, Birmingham, Hertfordshire and other places have had similar (near miss) fires in tower blocks but yet these were never seen as 'wake up' calls!

Blame the government for the tragic under funding and worthless re-organisation of the fire service across the UK, and probably in all public services.

Twenty years ago, London firefighters would have reached the victims and trapped occupants much earlier. That is not to discredit the bravehearts that fought this fire under a lack of funding, equipment, and training whilst tied up heavily in H&S red tape and protocols.

- Paul, London UK

My experience of the Fire service working in the Harlow area is that they are more profesional than most other occupations.The local authority should via a residents association,organise fire drill at least once a year,depending on the thro' put of tenants. This is similar to the arrangements in most L.A. offices where alarm tests are made on a weekly / monthly basis.
On another element in relation to my prev' comment with plastic burning,as it takes 120 degrees C more than wood to ignite,it follows that it is going to be hotter by 120 degrees, thus spreading the fire quicker since most int' doors are timber and paper honeycombed/ eggbox construction and most furniture is of plastic laminate esp' kitchen units. Looking at the pictures it didn't look as tho'the plastic storey height frames were metal reinforced. The lower insulated panels weren't,and were probably no more than 50 - 70 mm thick, not a lot to keep out the winter cold for an external wall,it's more like a portacabin wall thickness !
Bob Maldon, England.

- Bob Hill, Maldon England

i was among the first crews on scene - cant say much as ongoing investication but i can assure everyone that it was a horrendous job , but everything was in place and water was being used in less that 5 minutes of arrivel inside the building on the upper floors , fire crews worked well well beyond physical limits - i cant commnet on the latter part of the incident as that is out of my knowledge , but please stop suggesting things that you people have no idea about ..yes an enquirey is needed and i support that to make sure everything that could have been done was done - thats all i have to say

- Ben, london

I have seen American firemen abseiling down from the roof of burning buildings to rescue trapped people.
Is it not possible to train Londons firemen up to the same standard?

- Mo, Ealing UK

Britain in the 21st Century: Paperwork before people. Time for all of us to reverse that sentence....

- Wayne Barnes, London

SAME THING HAPPENED IN SCOTLAND THE FLAT BELOW WENT ON FIRE THE PVC WINDOWS MELTED AND SET THE FLAT ABOVE ON FIRE THE FLAMES WERE WILD MADE WORSE BY THE MELTING PVC AND POURED OUT POISONOUS BLACK SMOKE LUCKILY EVERYONE SURVIVED.

- Jim, scotland

How typical and sad it is of people in this country to criticize there Firefighters, they have saved 40 peoples lives in what was no ordinary fire!
People are looking at this with a ignorant view that you can just pull and stick a ladder to anywhere, access to the balconies is not easy when the vehicles with the platforms need hard standing ground to operate. Also up and down the country the government is closing and cutting back the fire service savagely so it is there back people should be on.
Mrs Johnson and Jack Spratt on how do the fire brigade intend to rescue people and fight fires in a high rise, simple they rescued 40 by doing it the best way possible! and quite obviously they were not wasting time searching lower floors as the fire had spread quickly to lower floors!
As for this 2.5 hours figure to get to the 11th floor, i think you may find that the unfortunate fatalities may have been located allot earlier than this but were left as it is procedure to leave bodies in situ for police investigation!

- Jt1981, Reading, UK

From the best information I've seen, this building looks completely different to Ronan Point. For a start, Ronan Point was tall and pointy, whereas Lakanal is long and thin. According to the VOA, Lakanal and Marie Curie both have 98 council tax billing addresses, all in band B; since the Bing Maps Birds Eye View clearly shows that these buildings both have 14 floors, I reckon that means there's seven flats to each floor.

Or rather, 14 flats to every *two* floors - because you can also see a row of balconies every other floor, and that there's only seven communal corridor windows at each end of the building. So there's only an access corridor every other floor, and each flat is spread over two floors.

Apart from the central staircase column, you can also see 14 other distinct columns on each side of the building, 6 to the north and 8 to the south of the stairwell. I've managed to download a floor-plan from an estate agent, and it turns out that a flat is the width of two of these columns - but only on the entry corridor level. The upstairs of the flat is the width of only one column, but extends above the communal corridor over to the opposite side of the building. So it looks as though all 98 flats in the block have a balcony on both sides of the building, and the upstairs of each flat gets sunlight both in the morning *and* in the evening.

Which would be nice. But this internal staircase arrangement makes it much more difficult to get out quickly in an emergency.

- Fred, Surbiton

If you guys think you've see it all then i advice you pay a visit to Gascoigne estate in Barking

nuff said

- John, Barking,UK

As a firefighter fightering the fire on the 11th floor on friday i find the comments that we did not do enough very upsetting. I know first hand that all was done to save the people in that flat and if we could have got to them to do a "snatch rescue" we would have!! It's very easy to sit there in your office speculating what more could have been done. For a front line firefighter knowing that people need to be saved the last thing that is in our minds is the HSE.

- Firefighter London, london

Building designs for new high rise buildings in Dubai and KSA, include sprinkler systems with sprinkler heads in all rooms and corridors/halls, inside the apartments, as well as in all communal corridors and escape routes.

Designs include more than 2 escape stairways within blocks ranging from 12 storeys up to 105 plus storeys, all of which incorporate into their construction, features designed to resist the passage of heat, smoke, flame, into designated escape routes/stairs, for at least 4 hours.

Invariably, there are 2 escape routes from within each apartment, so that occupants cannot be trapped in their apartments in the event of a fire. To do otherwise makes no sense at all, as you put lives at risk.

The above designs recognise that Fire Brigades will never have ladders tall enough to reach above Level 8 or 9.

I would be amazed if UK designers do not incorporate the above features into their designs of new high rise UK buildings.

Unfortunately, the building at the centre of this awful fire, appears to have been built to a standard which defeats common sense, but was no doubt affordable at the date of its construction. Between then and now, I assume that the Building Owners would have undertaken a Risk Assessment of the development, to enable substantive improvements to be identified and budgets with a savings plan drawn-up, to protect life and limb in the event of a Fire. Hopefully, the content of that Risk Assessment will be made public.

- David, Dubai, UAE

Wrong Mickinlondon,Firefighters don't risk there own lives, (they used to) Health and Safety regulations don't allow them to.

- Nick Bramsham Fireman (Retired), Herts

Jack Spratt, you don't know what you are talking about. The largest platform we have ever had in London, the ALP, was 33m (110ft) high. It was very limited in where it could be deployed, and has been replaced by similar platforms on smaller chasis. Fightng firesz from outside is very unsatisfactory, as more often than not you only push the fire deeper into the building. In most cases the structure of the building will prevent you from striking the seat of the fire, should we standby and wait for the fire to self ventillate before we tackle it? Also the effect of pumping several thousand litres of water a minute into a building can have a serious impact on the structure of any building, and also cause damage to flats that would otherwise not be involved. Also, the only way to rescue trapped people is to go into the building and find them.

- Matt, London

Has Lord Rogers, who tried to list a similar building at Robinhood Gardens against the residents' wishes, does he have a comment to make?

- Roz, France

And this building was 'listed' . . . ?

- Roz, France

Why were there no aeriel platforms there, like the Bronto Skylift which can reach 70 metres. The LFB used to have them but maybe they have been sold and not replaced?

- John, Battersea

Actually I think Dave has a point and I haven't searched the web trying to make it! Unless we are in that situation we cannot possibly fathom how hard it is to try and save people in extreme circumstances. Lets stop looking for scapegoats and see it as a number of issues. If there is a fire near you and you are able to,get out, period. Support and raise awareness about old housing and it's dangers through getting in touch with your MP or Council.If you live in a similiar building, speak up and try and get your worries heard. Educate young people into the destruction and danger of vandalism and try and use tragic examples like this to raise awareness about fire procedures and it's problems in tackling certain type of disasters. Thoughts are with the families.

- Jo, London

I feel so sad for the loss of life, and offer my sincerest condolences to the families of those who perished. Given the amount of tenants in this block of flats, I just thank God that there weren't more fatalities. This tragedy could have potentially been a lot worse.

- Sonia M., St Albans, Herts

I witnessed the fire on Friday from about 4.25pm as I work nearby. The fire brigade were on the scene very quickly (5-10mins). At that point the fire seemed to be coming out of the first flat with the smoke and heat spreading upwards. It was apparent that the source was near the central stairwell and I remember thinking that the main escape route would have been blocked off because of this. Buildings like this should have been designed with two stairwells, one at each end of the building, so that if a fire starts, people have a chance of getting out from at least one exit. This main fault combined with other disadvantages (no sprinkler system, fire alarms, height of the building etc) has resulted in this terrible tragedy taking place.

- Paul Atkins, Stockwell, London

Mary and Joe from London both make good points about Health and safety legislation restricting the actions of the fire service.
Another thing that inhibits firefighters is the change to way london fire brigade looks after its crews that get injured whilst on duty.
Previously if you were so severely injured that you could no longer work as a firefighter,you were pensioned off.
Nowadays you will be forced to leave the service on the grounds you are no longer competent to do a firefighters job.This will of course be with zero pension.
In effect you are fired for daring to get injured at work.

- Massey, Southwark UK

Rafael Cervi was speaking to his wife, trapped in a flat on the 11th floor for some considerable time is seems and was prevented from entering the building to rescue her by firemen when he arrived on the scene. They might just as well have let him try, because it appears that appliances full of firemen with breathing apparatus and aware that Dayana and her two children were trapped in a specific flat and still alive - were incapable of performing heroically enough on the day to save them. Survivors now speak of delays up to 90 minutes before evacuation and speaking to some victims on the phone for up to two hours before they were overcome. These days, it’s quite probable that the first act of the arriving fire crews would be a conference assessing the heath and safety risk involved for the crews themselves to even attempt to enter the building. An investigation should be held, not into the fire safety of the building - but into the actions and leadership involved of those who the unfortunate victims put their trust in to act professionally, in the best traditions of the service and with supreme valour on the day

- William Boreham, Kingston upon Thames.

Joe's comment sort of underpins my own view that firefighters would have wanted to rescue these people but legislation and direct orders from above would have meant they were ordered to hold back from certain areas. The footage showed firefighters in attendance very quickly and no white smoke (a product from adding water to a fire) which should have been clearly visible somewhere in the footage. The fact that this is not the case indicates to me that certain areas of the fire (the top 2 floors) were not permissable for firefighters to tackle because of HSE legislation. These tenants deserve answers from local council and central government funding - the firefighters cannot be held responsible - My guess is most if not all would have been endangered their own lives to save those that dies if the order allowed them to.

- Lucy, Southend

As the story updates I feel I should say that the statement about 9/11 is irrelevant as they have had 50m platforms since 1990 but you may ask why order them if you never use them. This fire could not have been fought in the early stages with dry risers due to the design of the flats which were on 2 floors. The fire needed a good blast of water from the outside, there was no option. This could have been done by a remote control water tower with no risk to life. It would have stopped the fire spreading its as simple as that sorry to say.

- Jack Spratt, Richmond, Surrey

the council have been told time and time again about the dangerous nature of it high righ buildings but have turn a blind eye. Larkanal surely is a wake up call but will the council do anything? l doubt. the council has the nak of fobbing off people when ever complaints are made. As a tenant of Marchwood Close on the southampton way estate, with only one escape route at the centre of the eleven floor building, we have raise the issue of safety and asbestos yet the chair of housing has not been true in meeting our demands. l understand from reliable source in the council that all high rise blocks will only be beautified to meet the council target of decent housing for all. hope the tragedy of Larkanal would make them sit up and demolish these death traps waiting to happen. Southwark has been negligent and it only needs a class action in court to make them take on their responsibility. the housing chair is ignorant and arrogant and people of Southwark have progressively over the years become indifferent to thier statutory right only wanting shelter over their heads despite the dangers as we have seen at Larkanal house.

- Paul, Southwark London

I agree with what Sam Webb has stated, indeed I have said the same thing on another blogg on this same subject a few hours ago. The thing is that the U.K.Building Regs' do not stipulate any fire performance standards for materials used in timber frames. No degree of fire resistance can be achieved (by B.S. 476 pt' 8 )but tests show that there is no difference between plastic and wood. Initial ignition temp' required for plastic is 120 degrees C higher than wood. Wood gives off carbon monoxide whereas plastic gives off noticeably less. The infill panels under the casements were in bare plastic whereas is done traditionally with timber and insulated infill batts and non conbustable ext' cladding and 2 layers of 12.5 mm thick plasterboard inside, that would have minimised the molten plastic run off and given a min' of 1 hr. fire resistance. Unfortunately the first things to go are the glazing panes,which then increase the oxygen supply that feeds the fire. from the media pics the full storey hight frames were gone making another hazard and doubling up on the available oxygen supply.Vandalism of signage ,fire alarms etc. is commonplace.Sprinkler systems are good but have high maintenance costs,esp' in flats, as does the cleaning of water storage tanks on the roof to prevent Legionaires disease. Some local authorities have taken out ,or disconnected sprinklers for these reasons.
Bob, essex England

- Bob Hill, Maldon England

I actually live in a pre-cast block of council flats; many of you will remember Ronan Point ‘’the tower block that collapsed in 1968’’ etc.

Many council blocks of flats were still being built, with the same pre-cast construction methods, after that disaster at Ronan point; my block in Westminster is another example etc; but by then these types of Tower blocks were reduced in height etc, many limiting the height to about seven or eight stories etc.

But here the danger of spreading fire, even water flooding is still inherited by the poor construction methods of pre-cast building; for instance there are gaps between all floors because each floor was not screeded with concrete when the buildings were finished etc, instead they are just covered with wood, leaving the gaps between each floor still open to fire and water etc.

I pointed this out once to our estate office; but I was told it would cost too much to rectify etc; and here is the reason why this tragedy like Ronan point will happen again from time to time.

You cannot in any-way blame the Fire Service for these deaths; they do their best at all times, and risk their own lives, trying to save others lives, mostly they win, but once in a while they lose; but you cannot fault them.

If anyone is to blame, it is the council district surveyors that accept these blocks from the constructors as fit for purpose; which they are clearly not.

Yes we had a fire death on my estate as well, as to escape doors, well one

- Mickinlondon, london.

Can anyone explain to me how a Firefighter,who,by the very title of the job infers danger,can work within the current Health and Safety legislation,how right Joe is,DOUBLE their salary,and exempt them.

- Mary, London

When I was a Fireman in London 1960/1971 I can say without any shadow of doubt,that the likelihood of loss of life in this situation would have been remote,but then there was none of this health and safety NONSENSE,back then there was a thing called "snatch rescue" when, we with no thought for our own safety would risk our lives to save others,how any Fire Brigade can opperate within the laws of H&S is beyond me,why cannot our Firefighters be exempt from these laws,and be paid a salary that reflects this?

- Joe, London

People do vandalise communal alarms, and fire escape stairs are frequently wedged open by residents or those up to no good.(External fire escapes provide a good access route for burglars). Thus residents feel insecure, and resist these measures. The answer is good construction, fire drills, and a properly trained and equipped fire force. Besides, how many of us stay put when we hear a fire alarm, imagining it's a mistake?

- Suze, London UK

Looking at the pictures of the building, you wonder why they did not put in fire-escape staircases at each end when they were built - or at least added them on when the block was refurbished. That would have given every flat on each floor two possible exit routes.

- Martyn L, kingston.

Many people are asking the questiona as to why the FB took 2.5 hours to get to those trapped and who subsequently died. My guess is that a Executive Officer within the Fire Service probably deemed the building too unsafe and dangerous in places to allow access for the firefighters and that the risk was too great. There is also the additional legislation that means that an indicidual has a personal responsibility to assess their own risk and to refrain from progressing until it was safe for them to do so. In this fire it would have not been safe presumably to access those areas for 2.5 hours. The FB knew the locaction of these people to provide specific instruction which is why I beleive it was an order from high up for firefighters to stand back from certain parts of the building.

- Lucy, Southend

comment

- Comment, comment

Do not critisise the firefighters. They do a fantasitic job in very dengerous conditions. They risk their lives, work round the clock and never moan or groan. Evem at Christmas when the rest of us are having fun, they are there standing by.
Just be thankful we have them.

- John Smith, London , England

Dave, London UK

Do you spend all day looking to comment on this site? I don't know what you are trying to say.

Apart from you, there have been very valuable comments regarding this tragic accident. All high-rise blocks built before 1980 need to be demolished ASAP because they are death traps. Health and safety obviously doesn't apply to the poor.

- Rod, Epping, UK

Dave, London UK

Do you spend all day looking to comment on this site? I don't know what you are trying to say.

Apart from you, there have been very valuable comments regarding this tragic accident. All high-rise blocks built before 1980 need to be demolished ASAP because they are death traps. Health and safety obviously doesn't apply to the poor.

- Rod, Epping, UK

If the suggestion of the rapid spread of fire cause was the UPVC windows then this raises a very big question relating the extensive use of plastics in their various forms within modern methods of construction. These are supported for their econiomic and thermal properties. Property protection is not considered a priority and this tragedy emphasises the dangers for residents and the emergency services alike. It is not possible to take account for the effects of vandalism therefore the basic structure has to be robust enough to offer sufficient egress and access to the property in times of emergency.

- Stephen Bridges, London

Those who died were advised on the phone by the LFB to hide in the bathroom and put wet towels under the door, to block smoke from entering. This is apparently standard LFB advice in these circumstances. Standard FB technique for people trapped in tower blocks on fire is to contain them above and below the fire. How was that supposed to work in this case, when you are in a bathroom on a floor which is on fire? The longest ladders in the LFB are apparently 108 feet. How tall was ninth floor in this case?

- Mrs Paul, London England

I take Jack Spratt's point, how can the LFB assume it will always be possible to tackle fires in a tower block from inside? Why are the LFB wasting time searching lower floors which are not on fire when they know (because they have spoken to them on the phone and seen them on the balconies) that there are people about to burn to death higher up? How high is the highest ladder they have in the LFB? Would it have reached the ninth floor? If so why was it not used? If they don't have any tall ladders, how do they propose to rescue people trapped when a fire starts in the higher floors in blocks like this?

- Mrs Jackson, London England

It is tragic, but if the residents of the flats had walked out their front doors and went to the end of the building walkway they would have been alive. Big mistake was to hide in the bathroom. Edmund Safra died in Monaco same way.

- Jon, london

Cost effective lessons need to be learnt quickly. My comments focus on the fire brigade. They can't always gamble on being able to tackle the fire from inside the building. The recent hotel fire in India started by terrorists showed their fire brigade doing a very good job from outside as there was no access. There is no point spending millions on high reach platforms and ladders if they are not used. So where were they ? Tv news showed just one hose throwing water up and not reaching the fire. It may well be that access with parked cars was a problem or even no firepaths because of landscaped areas. There was one hydraulic platform there but it was just parked up. I never want to see people on balconies again just helpless engulfed in smoke. In terms of fire escapes for this particular of building design, it would seem that an open steel affair could be built on an end flank wall with access made by opening up the end of hall window at the end. The building regulations are plainly at fault and I certainly agree with the comments aabout plastic windows.

- Jack Spratt, Richmond, Surrey

How many of the appliances that attended the incident had temporary officers in charge?
The LFB lead the way in scrapping National fire service exams and replacing them with an inferior promotion route of Personal development records(PDR).
People are now promoted on a 'temporary basis' and have to fill out their PDR to prove competent.
It is felt by many firefighters that this is a worthless,time consuming paper exercise.
The end result is that firefighters have little faith in officers that they do not have previous experience with.

- Massey, Southwark UK

The fire brigade did all they could given the circumstances - I was outside the block at the time and saw how hard they were trying and how quickly they responded. Dayana and her two children were abolutely lovely - always smiling.

- Saunaing Tic Gill, London

What did the fire risk assessment report say about the block. It is a legal requirement that an assessment be done. Was it? Were the lack of smoke detectors picked up in the assessment? Were there enough fire doors to protect the stairs? Was the passive measures adequate? These should have been assessed.

- Alan Wingfield, London, UK

One of the reasons there are no communal fire alarms in buildings like these is because they get vandalised or constantly purposely set off for a laugh.

I lived in a building similar to this a few years back and anything that wasn't nailed down or heavily armoured got destroyed or stolen.

It's the same with life saving rings to stop people drowning in the Thames. Most are now missing because within hours of installation they get chucked in the water.

- Mcw, London

whilst i sympathise with the victims and the relatives of those. In an incident like this that results in death , people will always look for someone to blame. i wonder if they have tried climbing 11 floors in full BA and carrying various eqpt , whilst in dense smoke and fighting a fire on the way up in extreme heat , then covering your mates safety , then doing a methodical search of each flat on the way up could do it any quicker ?

- Dave, London UK

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