Military chiefs up in arms over Dannatt’s Afghan ‘shopping list’
Paul Waugh, Deputy Political Editor20.07.09
Britain's military chiefs were today plunged into extraordinary infighting over the Afghanistan war.
The head of the army, General Sir Richard Dannatt, broke rank by going public with a “shopping list” of equipment and extra troops that he wants to boost the fight against the Taliban.
He spoke out as Gordon Brown was already in retreat over the handling of the conflict by signalling that 700 troops deployed there temporarily were now likely to stay beyond the Afghan elections.
Within hours of Gen Dannatt's comments, his boss — the Chief of the Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup — emerged from No 10 after 40 minutes of talks with Mr Brown.
Appearing at times uncomfortable, he stressed that more helicopters could avert casualties but stopped well short of Gen Dannatt's astonishing challenge to the Government over the Afghan campaign.
Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth was understood to have been left “irritated” by Gen
Dannatt's actions which were also said to have riled Sir Jock and First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, the head of the Navy.
Military sources stressed that there was particular annoyance over Gen Dannatt's warning that the defence budget may have to be “reordered” — opening up agreements previously made between the defence chiefs — to divert more resources towards Afghanistan which could hit Navy and Air Force projects.
One senior military figure said: “We can't have a serving head of the Army taking on the Government.” Another added: “We should be making the case for defence, not fighting among ourselves.”
The row came as the Ministry of Defence announced another soldier, from the 2nd Battalion The Rifles, had died in an explosion while on foot patrol near Gereshk in central Helmand in southern Afghanistan.
The fatality brings the British death toll since the conflict started in 2001 to 185. In the last month 16 British soldiers have been killed — 13 of them by roadside bombs.
Gen Dannatt told the BBC that tackling road bombs was “critical” to winning public support for the war. “If we were to carry on the number of casualties that we had last week, people might say hang on, this is not a price worth paying',” he said.
He said he had not asked for 2,000 troops to add to the 9,000 expected this summer “as such”, but made clear he backed an increase of that scale.
He said: “We do need more troops, we need more boots on the ground.”
Gen Dannatt is due to retire shortly, and his successor, General Sir David Richards, is said to have concerns over his defiant stance given that he will be left to deliver the equipment troops will be expecting.
What the general wants
More helicopters — extra Chinooks and Merlins to be sent.
More “boots on the ground” — 700 troops deployed temporarily for the Afghan elections are now set to stay longer.
More drones as part of wider moves to improve aerial surveillance.
Enhanced capabilities to detect improvised explosive devices.
Extra intelligence officers to gather information from communities on Taliban.
Faster training of Afghan army and police.
Reader views (35)
Do we have a Prime Minister is the question to be asked? Whenever I watch, listen or read the news lately it always seems to be three times looser Mandleson who appears to be standing in for the self-style PM? Has Brown done a runner? Is there something we should know about the Brown/ Mandleson duo? Is Mandleson hiding a dark secret about Brown? After all Mandleson appeared virtually out of nowhere, was made a Lord with the wave of a magic wand all with Brown's nod through and now seems to be running the country over the top of the dear Gordon? Very confusing.
- Albert Hall, hove england
So now there's a public falling out among the politicians in uniform too. Those who maintain the conspiracy with Brown, Derek Ainsworth Guyler & Co to smother dissent,turn on the one who speaks out.
Dannatt is certainly a politician too, but his case will win public support. Brown and his coterie have long since lost all credibility. People see through their cynicism and ineptitude.
- The Bishop, UK
BROWN you have got to listen to Gen. Dannatt, he knows what he is talking about, remember adolph hitler he wouldn't listen to his Generals, look what happened to him, it's a pity that,that thieving gang of your's doesn't follow suit, can't you see brown the people don't want you, you make wrong decisions etc.BROWN JUST GO
- Agnes & Robert, vancouver british columbia
Correct Ethan.
The MoD is wasting BILLIONS. It is also slow to provide the right equipment and is spending money needlessly on overpriced equipment it does not need.
- Trevorsden, Wallingford; UK
Well done sir richard a voice of sanity speaking out what the majority of this country knows dammed well.
This bunch of liebour social engineering marxist misfits have bankrupted this country with their madcap spending on useless failed projects,but what do you expect when they have,nt a brain between them.
Their mantra seems to be survival at all costs,they are deluded they will suffer the biggest electoral disaster the liebour party has ever seen.
McClown and his yellow bellied yes men do not give a damn about troops who are put in harms way underequiped but the public do as these clowns will soon find out.
- Crom, wigan,england
No one wants to consider this but could we habe leaders that are working to another agenda other than the good of the British people. How could so many mistakes that are apparent to all who study these things be made, how could so much be lost? 13 helicopters in Afghanistan covering an area the size of Britain for 8,000 troops. £1.3 trillion of our national wealth paid to banks. The only Western power with reserves of 310 tons of gold when France, Germany and Italy have roughly 2400 tons EACH. Source authortive World Gold Standard.
There is much more.
- Jas, Camberley UK
So Val worked at the MoD, and loves GoBo. Perhaps in a brave section not buying kit, well away from the front.
GoBo cut funds so we have 13 helicopters for 9,000 troops. Work it out. Our boys must drive on mined roads. They drive Vikings as GoBo's real funding cuts were from 6.8% to about 4.5%. Vikings were old in 1970 as softskinned snowmobiles in Norway. Val loves GoBo so much, you get in a Viking and drive around Afghanistan. No, you have no helicopter, GoBo cut the funds. Yes, lots of IED's along the roads. Have GoBo go with you and tell you how more helicopters do not save lives. So you and GoBo will enjoy being in a Viking, 'coffins'. What you do not want to go?
Troops in S. Armagh in 1970's used only helicopters to access Crossmaglen. No road travel allowed. Too many IED's. Labour then cared for troops. Now we all know GoBo had McBride his assistant for 10 years work by inventing smears on everyone. So now No 10 and Labour openly say a General is to be smeared, for asking for more troops and helicopters. Who do GoBo and Labour think they are fooling? 'I ended boom and bust' Ha ha, and 'I ended the economic cycle'. GoBo has destroyed more UK wealth then Hitler. He diverted funds meant for kit, troops and helicopters that would save lives to his Labour marginals to buy votes. Corporate manslaughter is too good for GoBo. He is truely the most immoral, incompetent and worst PM in history. Trial and a long jail term, or front line in Helmand.
- Jim, birmingham uk
Havn't read all the comments but plea for more soldiers and choppers reminds me of the Americans in Vietnam.[Just before I went on holiday , it was armoured carriers - since provided , it's now choppers ! hey!] When your soldiers are being killed on the ground the answer is to get up in the air , means you don't 'own' the country. Get it ? Or , like Nr Ireland , takes a long time for the military to realise , could be the population doesn't want you there in the first place ! [from a former {British} soldier.]
- Chris M, morbihan,france
Val Daniels of Spain's frequent comments supporting NuLiebour always struck me as someone who has lived off the public purse with a nice retirement pension. Now I know!
- Perdix, uk
#Peter, Orihuela
I feel no guilt about having two homes and don't have to justify myself to you or anybody else.I think most of the comments are more about sour grapes than anything else.You are entitled to your opinion about the MOD, but it doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are talking about.You need to make up your mind; one minute the MOD is an overspending monolith, the next it is underfunding our services, which is it to be? You are talking rubbish.The only wrong move regarding the MOD was made when the Conservatives privatised the training establishments & handed them over to Flagship Training; an absolute disaster. Uniformed & civilian staff vying with each other, doing identical jobs, costing extra money & doing them differently. The Tories will sell anything that isn't nailed down, because they know the cost of everything & the value of nothing.Our services are better equipped than they have ever been; ask the service chiefs.They made it very clear this evening that they certainly do not support Gen.Dannett who has abused his position & is doing the MOD a disservice in his confrontations with the government.Gordon Brown is to be admired for not stooping to Gen Dannett's level by repeating conversations held with him and Jock Stirrup which involve matters of security & should not be for public consumption,or airing on the BBC. Write about matters with which you are familiar,not about those of which you know absolutely zilch.
- Val Daniels, Mijas Costa, Spain
As the military need helicopters so urgently the civilian helicopter fleets should be requisitioned and adapted for military use. This may deprive the oil companies and big corporations of their executive transport and air taxis but if it saves soldiers lives so be it. In WW2 the Navy took over trawlers and pleasure boats with the same end.
- Richard Meredith, huntingdon
Lets get one thing straight. We are not at War. the war on terror is a euphemism not a fact If we were at war, the Services would move on to a War Establishment footing with considerably enhanced equipment and personnel. There are a number of constitutional requirements to the declaration of a War. But would this shambles of a Govenment ever realise this having spent the last 12 years using the back of a fag packet as a substitute for Parliamentary knowledge.
- Michael John Murphy, Brightlingsea
Gordon McRuin will probably ask Lord Meddlesome to 'Rid me of this troublesome General!' That will mean Labour will be scoring 'Own Goals' again as their Spin Meisters indulge in a negative drip feed of inuendo, title-tattle and thinly disguised threats to senior military officers who have had the brass neck to criticise McRuin and Pals.
What will McRuin's response be - probably the usual Labour 'SOPS' (Standing Operational Procedures). 'Do Nothing', talk much, blether, yadder and hope those daft enough amongst the public will beieve what is being said.
Of course, anyone with a concern at what Labour are doing to UK society, won't be fooled one little bit.
- Uncle Vanya, East Anglia Area UK
Gen Dannatt - we're all behind you - well done for speaking out. If only all bosses cared as much about their employees as you clearly do about your soldiers. We also know the only reason you have reached the end of the line with the Army is because Brown PERSONALLY asked that you were not promoted to Chief of Staff, even though it's a relatively normal and usual step in the career path.
Brown only wants 'yes men' around him who continue to promote his cloud cuckoo land ideas - and most of them are quitting in their droves. Out of touch? He's worse than that - he is sailing our troops, the country and the entire population down the river. He knows NuLabour will lose the next election and he's making darn sure that the next incumbents have a hellish time trying to dig us out of this mess.
- Jane, London
Brown last week pledged £1.1 billion to overseas aid,instead of bailing out the rest of the world,who incidentaly probably hate us,he should give our troops whatever equipment they need,i detest this useless corrupt farce of a government,and Cameron better start doing his job of opposing this looney lot,or this will be one vote he won't get at the next election.
- Carol Taylor, Romford England
God what a difference rank makes. The senior "Zobs" are terrified of losing their pension rights and won't back the one who stands up to Brown. The senior officers are as bad and corrupt as the politicians they grovel in front of. As for not taking on the Government, well, I reckon 99.999% of the people in this country would love a coup, right this moment! The sooner the monarchy stands up for her citizens and prorogues this house of cards the better.
- Roy Lewis, United Kingdom
I dont know why Val of Mijas has a guilt complex about liveing in Spain. I partly do and too and fro thro out the year. However as an apologist for the Labour Party and Gordon she protests to mutch but haveing confessed she worked for the MOD I suppose that explains her views. The MOD is a bloated over manned self serving monolith who spends on their own comfort like a drunken sailor (Sorry you Tars) the only difference is that sailors are spending their own money so they are entitled to spend as they like.The MOD in the shape of Gordon and the prevailing Defence seceretary over the past ten years have been guilty of disgraceful underfunding of the Services particularly 2003/7. Better kit now but not good eneough but its the sheer disengenuousness of the Government that is beneath contempt Eg Twice the number of Helicopters. whats that 2 to 4 , 4 to 8. They have been forced to reveal the grand total of 13 , thats 13 for 8000 troops. Its despicable. They lie and twist until they have to come clean.
Just go go Gordon you wont be missed
Peter
Spain
- Peter French, Orihuela Costa Spain
We could release billions for additional spending by getting rid of 2/3 of the MoD. This is the worst and most inefficient ministry in government (and that's saaying something!). From losing 800 laptop computers (were they handing them out through the window?) to catastrophic mismanagement of defence procurement, they have become a laughing stock, but so serious for our soldiers. At the same time they have spent £700M refurbishing their offices. I wonder how many new helicopters that little exercise would have bought!
- Tom Williams, Oxford UK
So let him withdraw his comments, (PMQ's etc
, that our forces do not need more helicopters. I doubt it.
Does anyone in this country of ours actualy like this fool of an excuse for a Prime Minister ?
- Brian Hughes, Llandudno. North Wales. U.K.
Nik - a cogent argument but consider if he cancelled ID cards theres £3 BILLION right there. Tranche 3 of Eurofighter? Nobody wants them - so cancel them - several Billion there. Stop re-inventing the wheel at enormous cost and simply buy the same equipment that the US buys. Good example of this is Nimrod - much more expensive than AWACS and prone to bursting into flames during inflight re-fueling.
Here lack of cash isn't a huge factor it's idiocy in the MOD and HMG. Make better choices - based on our needs not the size of the private job offered to the civil servant minister after they leave public service.
Try googling Clansman/ Bowman then realise an off the shelf US system would be cheaper and already in service now.
Navy - Type 45 destroyer - useless it will go to sea less well armed than it's predecessor. Build the Arleigh Burke class under license (in the UK) as S Korea is doing - much cheaper and better. The new aircraft carriers - why not simply build under licence two Nimitz class carriers (nuclear) so cheaper to run long term and cheaper to buy short term.
The MOD/HMG waste our cash hand over fist- it has to stop.
- Ethan, UK
Nik,
Perhaps the money should come from all the useless quangoes ,perhaps it could come from the bloated civil service or perhaps it could some from the sale of our Gold reserves,oh sorry GB sold that at a 1/4 of the present value!
- Tony Johnson, Hythe UK
#Ethan
Sorry to burst your balloon but despite all reports to the contrary, Gordon Brown was not asked for 2000 more troops to be sent to Afghanistan, nor did he refuse to provide them. This was confirmed by Gen. Dannett this morning, when he denied asking for 2000 extra men. Similarly, the furore about the moth-balled helicopters which have been lying idle for years. These were procured under the Conservatives who made a mistake in the specification, which rendered them not only useless, but also dangerous operationally, see Google. It is farcical for David Davis to now try to pin this abortion on the government. As I have said here previously, Defence spending was cut by the Tories year on year in real terms from 1985 to 1997,since when this government has increased Defence spending in each and every year. Our services are better equipped now than they have ever been, and that from Sir Jock Stirrup himself. I write from an informed position as an employee of the MOD prior to my retirement. Sorry if the truth irks you, Ethan, but it is the truth just the same. As for my pride or otherwise in Gordon Brown, I accept he is being dragged through the mire by those who have their own agendas. Nevertheless, the facts speak for themselves. Alastair Darling was ridiculed when he said the UK economy would start to recover in the 3rd quarter. Even the IMF agrees his Xmas has come early. I only live part of the year in Spain, I return to my home in the UK next week.
- Val Daniels, Mijas Costa, Spain
So, Mr (unelected dictator)Brown will "consider" will he? Meanwhile families are losing their loved ones needlessly at the expense of a non-caring Brown government. About time this man was forced into oblivion. He and Blair have totally wrecked this country. Stop spending money on illegal immigrants and their "human rights" solicitors then. Stop paying for translaters and do-gooders. Most of these immigrants have families and friends here who can translate but they prefer to use resources at the tax-payers expense.
- Lin, London England
More troops more dead bodies let America finish it after all they started it
- Steven, sunderland
Liam Fox was unbelievable on Radio 4 this morning. He is a right winger who wants swingeing spending cuts after the next election but wants unlimited spending on the Armed Services. At the moment anything the Generals ask for is fine by Liam, Aircraft Carriers, Fighters, Trident and also helicopters to ferry the Royal Family to their Golf Matches and Stag parties. Perhaps if Charles and his boys went by road we might have a few more helicopters for Afghanistan.
- R Race, Ealing England
If Gordon Brown refused to authorise the expenditure necessary to conduct the war in Afghanistan then he should resign, Now.
- Simon Ellis, London E8
More shame on Crash Gordon's bunch - oh no that is right no shame...
- Georgie, Islington, London
Fine. The money must come from somewhere. Look at the state of our budget deficit and national debt projections. I think Brown should raise income tax by 1-2% to pay for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. There, many of you who are whingeing about Brown not spending more money on the military, I bet you wouldn't pay the extra tax, would you? Money. Mouth. Etc.
- Nik Cholerton, London
Our troopa are DYING so we can have "outreach" workers and translators for immigrants.Madness.We need an election now.
- Stewart Robertson, Wimbledon
Here is a man who knows and says what is needed in Afganistan and puts the lives and welfare of his soldiers first. What more can we ask of the Chief of The General Staff?
Yet this government is starting a campaign to discredit Sir Richard simply because he knows and does his job and tells the truth.
This government has consistently lied to us since it was elected in 1997 so perhaps its planned vilification of Sir Richard should come as no surprise.
The campaign by the public on behalf of the Gurkhas forced the government into a U turn away from a shameful stance. Sir Richard clearly needs to go public in order to obtain our support to force this government to provide the equipment that our soldiers need and deserve.
- Martin Fielding, London, England
I do not doubt that Sir Richard knows exactly what he is talking about and exactly what the troops need to complete the job. Will Gordon Brown come up with the money though. That´s anybody´s guess, isn´t it? My guess is "no".
- Graham Rodhouse, Helmond, Netherlands
I saw Captain Queeg yesterday appearing before a Select Committee of MPs. All that was missing were the ball bearings.
He is a pathological liar incapable of giving a straight answer.
- James Town, Braintree UK
So what happened to the PM's assertion that we decided?
It must meen that the PM considers himself as equal to the Queen and can use the Royal WE.
- Tony Johnson, Hythe UK
Glad to see Dannatt is doing his job, keep up the good work! Its a pitty he's leaving in a month.
- John, london
We all know Brown only has one working eye but not many people know Brown also has amazing hearing. For instance when Dannatt tells him we need more troops and copters in Afghanistan he only hears all that as "Your so right Mr Prime Minister indeed it can all be done for two pounds fifty using one man and a big hockey stick and Mr Prime Minister can I say your personal approval ratings have never been so high".
I used to think Brown was a pathological liar leading a team of practiced lying idiots. Now I see him simply as completely deranged and living on planet wibble. Population 2 -him and Livingslime.
Mijas Val - You must be so proud of the wonderful job Brown is doing over here. Is that why you choose to live
in Spain? To be fair Brown has eliminated relative poverty by beggaring us all equally. Genius!
My Thomas a'Beckett moment -Won't someone PLEASE rid us of idiot Clown Brown?
- Ethan, UK
Afternoon:
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