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FYI, after considering the amount of time and effort in appealing these matters, I've enclosed my £20 penalty cheque to them having wiped my bottom with it and written "with compliments" for them to handle. Perhaps, you would consider doing the same after all they've given us.

- Murray, London, 12/02/2012 14:07
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At the end of my travel journey, I was issued a £20 penalty notice at Waterloo by SW train staff. Incredibly rude and ignorant person but that's separate.

My routine working journey consists of a bus to Clapham Junction and then the train to Waterloo. I have a monthly oyster card for zone 1 & 2. The morning of 30th Jan '12, I boarded my bus having tapped in and then alighted at Clapham Junction for South West train to Waterloo.

However, upon reflection (subsequent to fine), I realise the gates at Clapham Junction were open and despite me placing my card on the reader a the time, it mustn't have registered. I later found out at Waterloo via the inspector that it expired the previous day despite having £1.45 remaining on it after my initial bus journey.

I received the penalty notice and immediately topped up my monthly travel card (£112.20) commencing that day.

I was in no way attempting to avoid paying for my journey as I am monthly oyster card holder and top up each month especially, if and when it indicates so.

My dilemma is that, had the Clapham Junction gates been closed, I would have paid my monthly travel card there and then rather than at Waterloo after my penalty because I would have known it was expired because it wouldn't have opened despite having an additional £1.45 (top-up) remaining on it after my bus fare.

Do I have a case for appeal given my good travel history (monthly) and good intentions given that I approached them with my card issue?

- Murray, London, 12/02/2012 13:42
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Lizz -

To give you an idea about the security of name and address checks, this is how it works...

1) The Inspector's badge number
2) The Postcode that has been given to them.
3) The Number of the Property.
4) The person on the phone then reads out the full address based on the details the Inspector has said so far where the inspector must confirm whether they match or not.

5) The Inspector is asked for the full name that the passenger has put in their notebook.

6) The operator will then tell the inspector whether the name matches with the records of the electoral roll or not.

For the name and address check to be valid, the address and the surname (at least) must match their records.

In cases where the address is correct but the name isn't, it is up to the inspector as to whether they want to proceed with the Penalty or MG11 or ask for the assistance of the British Transport Police for the name and address check.
If they choose to proceed without the Police, the inspector much ensure that they make a note of the fact the name doesn't match the address to prevent cases like this happening.

I advise that you ask the company to use their CCTV for the date concerned and to also check to see if the Inspector had noted that their was issues with the name and address check. The company needs to have some proof that your daughter was there to have a case to argue as there is every chance the inspector may not have filled in the form correctly.

- Ex - Revenue Protection Inspector, London, 08/02/2012 20:40
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Chris H -

When you occupy First Class on a Standard Class Ticket you can be charged a Penalty Fare. You can either pay the full amount or refuse to and only offer to pay the difference from Standard to First Class.
Whether you are standing or seated in First Class and do not hold a First Class ticket, you can still get a Penalty Fare.
Train Operators consider taking Penalty Fares worth £20 to court too costly and do not bother, although they would send you letters demanding payment. As this actual article states once you've paid for the difference for sitting in First Class you can have a valid argument to take up with the appeals service.

If you refuse to agree to pay at least the difference for sitting in First Class (Which would be known as a part paid Penalty Fare) The inspector would fill in an MG11 notice which involves asking you 5 questions. Once complete, they keep the form and it is forwarded to the Train Operators prosecutions department.
They write you a letter asking you to explain why you couldn't or wouldn't pay.
If they are satisfied the matter would be settled if they are not, they would take it to court which if it's a success can result in a fine between £75 - £1000.

- Ex - Revenue Protection Inspector, London, 08/02/2012 20:21
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I often travel on very overcrowded trains during the rush hour (often when preceding trains have been cancelled) and will sometimes stand outside the first class section until the train moves out of London Bridge station. If there is space in the first class section, and nobody else standing or attempting to take a seat, then I will sit in this area.

Once the Train reaches Croydon there is often more space available and so I will move to the normal part of the train. I was challenged once whilst doing this by a ticket inspector who got on at Croydon who said I was required to have a first class ticket. Whilst I didn't get a penalty fare, or pay the difference, I would be interested to know what the legal situation is.

- Chris H, Redhill, 10/01/2012 13:52
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Someone fraudently used my daughters name and address on the Luton/London line, she has proof that she was working 30 miles away at the time. She was contacted and told that she was being charged, she contacted the court and told it would be sorted out if she the relevant evidence to the court she did - and has now received a huge fine and threat of court action eg car being taken/bailiffs etc if not paid by Boxing Day! If she pays she will have a 'guilty' note on a record presumably - she is in a career that could be put at risk by this - what can we do.

- Lizz, Luton, UK, 17/12/2011 22:02
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Last week my daughter got fine of £140 for not having her student rail card with her. She had her tickets inpected by East Midland Trains staff while traveling from St Pancras to Loughborough but could not produce the student card. I was wondering if this would be worth appealing against as the amount of the fine seems to far outway the mistake made.

Thanks Brian.

- Brian, London, 11/12/2011 19:07
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Paul -

The rules they should have been reciting should be from the SRA's Penalty Fare Rules Booklet (Now used by the Department For Transport) this is available online for free on their website.

Unfortunately, the Penalty Fares are now more than ever commonly used as a means to encourage people to ensure they have the right ticket before boarding trains and if a ticket is found to being out of date or not valid you can be issued one.
In this case, you'd be considered responsible for ensuring your ticket is valid for the journey you're making before travelling. The exception for not having a valid ticket on you is of course if the ticket buying facilities haven't been provided, in which case you'd be entitled to buy a ticket without a penalty fare.
The Train Operators normally tell staff that if discretion was shown for everyone that had forgotten to ensure their ticket was valid for travel or for somebody in a hurry revenue protection staff would not be applying the deterrent in place to ensure that the number of people in this situation does not increase. It is the belief of the train operators that charging penalty fares helps to ensure that people have the correct ticket before boarding and it keeps the number of people in this situation down.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 06/12/2011 23:50
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Andy -

All Revenue Protection Staff must carry the I.D badge when they are issuing Penalty Fares, Taking a name and address or even writing and MG11.
If a customer is in any of the above situations with an Inspector, that Inspector must show the full contents of their I.D when asked.

The First Capital Connect I.D would is set out like this....

EMPLOYEE is written 4 times across the top in red.

Beneath this is a photo of the inspector on the left and on right of the photo the inspector's full name, their job title, badge number and the expiry date of their I.D.

With regards to making a complaint, yes it's true FCC seem to feel that it's acceptable for their Customer Facing Staff to just have their First Name on their badge. Another way, is to just ask them for their inspector badge number (which is always a 5 digit number)
Moorgate is a station where they'd normally be conducting a block.
A block is an operation the TOCS put in place where they have a large number of inspectors conducting ticket checks. Therefore, it is perfectly understandable why you'd have a problem making a complaint especially as more than 1 person at the block could have the same name.
By asking for the Inspectors badge number, you'll be able to ensure that the complaint is made about the right person as FCC will have a record of who matches what inspector number.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 06/12/2011 23:31
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Dave C -


All appeals are investigated. They would firstly get the TOC to present them with a report which will help them identify whether any Oyster reading equipment at the station was faulty. This would be one area that would give you a successful appeal.
The other area that they'd be looking at is whether Oyster had reported whether your payment card you use for auto top up had been declined for any reason.

Faulty Oyster readers are not your fault - that's the Train Operators problem so you would win an appeal on that basis.

If your usual payment card for Oyster Auto Top - Up had been declined and you were perhaps unaware then this could go against you.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 06/12/2011 23:04
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Mitch - There are agreed limits on queuing times that the TOCs set up individually. The best thing to do is to contact the Train Operating Company concerned and ask them how long do they deem as adequate for a passenger to queue for their ticket. If they waiting longer than the TOC's agreed queuing time then you can mention this in your case against them in court. They have to provide you with an honest and accurate answer about their queuing time. I then advising saving the e-mail which can be used as a form of evidence to support your case. If the person was willing to pay for their fare too, the inspector would have had to have declared that on the form which mentions whether the person had offered to pay the fare had they given the opportunity. If the inspector has skipped that part and crossed it out, this is also another point to raise.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 06/12/2011 22:59
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This morning I found out that my travel card had expired. I found this out when I tried to go through the barriers at London Victoria and I was not able to. I walked to the ticket office to inform them that I needed to renew my travel card but before I got there I was stopped and was told (this before I had even asked for a ticket) that I needed to pay a penalty fare. I said that my travel card had expired on the Saturday and I had not realised as I don't use the card over the weekend and that I thought he was being unreasonable. He ignored this and started reciting rules and regulations of which I had never heard of before and which were quite confusing. I refused to pay any fine as I felt it unfair that just because my Oyster card had ran out I was expected to now pay a fine of £20. He said that he was going to call the police, which I welcomed and encouraged (which he actually didn't do) he said he was now going to "Push for the highest outcome from court and I was going to prison for 30 days" During this time 2 other people came to the ticket office with the same issue and he said allow them through. I was so shocked that I was speechless. I can't understand why he would allow one person through and not another.

- Paul, London UK, 05/12/2011 09:30
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F.A.O- Andy, London, 25/11/2011 11:27

Only the first name on a name badge is required.

If a train conductor asked to see your ticket would you be so wound up? or ask to see id? or if you were on a bus and a bus inspector asked for your ticket would you ask for id?

If a inspector tries to issue you a penalty fare you can ask to see his authorised collectors badge.

Maybe you are fed up with rude FCC staff gathering in numbers to check tickets, but you have to ask yourself why are there so many checking tickets at the location?

Hope that helps.

OH if you wanted to test the inspector make out you have lost/misplaced your ticket, let them start writing out a penalty fare and ask to see their authorised collectors badge and then find it.

- Terrance, Surrey, 29/11/2011 02:27
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I've got a question about ticket inspector ID.

I have gotten rather tired of the unpleasant gathering of FCC ticket inspectors at the top of the escalators at Moorgate, so this morning I politely asked to see some ID before handing over my ticket. The inspector balked at this and despite having an ID laminate on a lanyard around his neck (carefully turned backwards so as not to show his actual ID), he refused to do so.

He simply pointed at a name tag on his shirt that only gave his first name (useless if you have any need to make a complaint) and said "that's all the ID you're going to see, now give me your ticket".

So my question is, do I have the right to insist on seeing some proper ID to confirm he really is a FCC employee - perhaps with a photo, full name, or even just a badge number, just in case a complaint needs to be made?

I didn't want to push it this morning without knowing whether this was within my rights, as these guys are pretty aggressive.

- Andy, London, 25/11/2011 11:27
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Hi

I've been a £20 penalty fair notice today while coming through belvedere station from Maze hill... I have an oyster card which is on auto topup meaning that whenever the credit drops below £5, it automatically puts £20 back on the card... So i was shocked to be told that my oyster was not validated at maze hill... I touched the card against the reader as usual and didnt notice anything unusual.

Of couse, i will be appealing and will send my oyster card history to show that i do use the card to touch in and out.

What are my chances of this being appeal being successful?

Many rhanks

- Dave C, Belvedere, 18/11/2011 20:23
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my son has received a summons to court because he did not pay for a train ticket. He has yearly student pass but was unable to purchase the train ticket because the queue was very long and would have missed his train and would have made him late for college. He sent all the relevant evidence back to the Court for his appeal, however they have summoned him again - what should we do, any advice please"

- Mitch, London, England, 18/11/2011 16:42
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Chad,

This is a simple case of somebody that's left their season ticket at home. All you need to do is send the appeal's address a copy of your season ticket together with a normal explanation letter to prove that you actually had one which is/was valid on the date you were charged the penalty and you should have a successful appeal without any problem what so ever.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 13/11/2011 11:30
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Matteo,

On these letters there should be numbers/addresses which you can use to contact the people that want the money. As long as you follow the matter up as quickly as possible and explain your financial situation, they'll be willing to negotiate so you can pay off small sums of this fine at a time. I'd advise leaving them your new address too to avoid them taking the matter any further than it already has been taken.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 13/11/2011 11:21
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Nick,

As long as you had a ticket covering you to at least Brighton or beyond there is absolutely no reason why they couldn't have sold you an extension/excess ticket to allow you to travel in to London. As you asked advice and offered to do something about it BEFORE completing your entire journey, you shouldn't have been issued any penalty fare or MG11. The inspector accusing you of fare evasion is wrong and I suggest raising that in a complaint with the TOC that they represent and regardless of what an Inspector's opinion is, they are trained to avoid conflict so any opinion of their's should be kept to themselves and to focus on doing their job.
This is not a case of fare evasion at all and should never have been treated as such. There are certain areas of the job where Revenue Protection Staff may sell extension/excess fares and this is one of them.

- Ex- Revenue Inspector, London, 13/11/2011 11:18
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I travelled from (Cheam to London Bridge on the 9th November 2011) and a ticket inspector came to check everyones tickets, I then realised i had left my wallet at home which had my weekly train pass (which i purchased on the 8th November) I was fined £20. Do you think I can appeal?

- Chad, Cheam, 09/11/2011 15:15
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Hi there!
I have a question
My wife got caught without a ticket on a London Bus in May 2011. She felt very sorry because she has never done that before and got caught the first time. She wanted to pay immediately but the guy said it will be send to her address. It never arrived but end of June we moved to a different address and forgot about it. On the 7th of November I went there to collect some post and found several letters- 1.) summons to court from Magistrate court 2.) bailiff letters etc. We are a bit worried because the amount they are asking for is more than £500 and we can not pay that.
Any suggestions or advise what to do would be appreciated!
Thank you very much

- Matteo, London, 09/11/2011 14:09
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Chris, you are quite right. If a member of rail staff that works for the toc you have used had authorised you to travel, you are entitled to make that journey because that member of staff has said so. It may be frustrating for the Revenue on the gates who may be keen to get another Penalty Fare to impress his/her manager. But in the rule book, they should not penalty fare you, and if they do you should instantly have a successful appeal.
I noticed that you have mentioned that you had attempted to buy your ticket with no success, but the staff also authorised your travel, and when a member of rail staff that works for the toc that you have used have done so, then you shouldn't have been charged a penalty.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 03/11/2011 00:40
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Everything about these penalty fares is almost illegal, loop holes found in laws. I myself have found myself with a fine just yesterday its funny because it clearly says in there rules that if someone is waiting more then 3 minutes (peak times) that isnt sufficient time to buy a ticket if your train is already there, people have jobs and lives simply wanting to not miss your train and purchase one on the train which is fully in your rights its understandable, i myself arent stupid enough to think i could avoid paying.. i waited 3 minutes but my train was there so i boarded and searched for a ticket officer and when i found him he told me i couldnt use my card in his machine but he reassured me theres a ticket booth just before charring cross's barriers so after being reassured i got off the train in charring cross and straight away headed to the fares booth asked the young lady for a ticket from tonbridge to london charring cross she then told me her card machine was broken aswell and that she would get someone so she did two men come from the other side of the barriers came up to the fares booth and fine'd me.. it is again put in south easterns rules that if there is no way to buy a ticket its appealable, now you may be thinking if your one of those sadistic revenue officers that oh why didnt you get one before you boarded your train, well a person who works for south eastern told me to just board the train and get a ticket on the train, theres rules set down for that to.

- Chris, Kent, 01/11/2011 19:44
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Everything about these penalty fares is almost illegal, loop holes found in laws. I myself have found myself with a fine just yesterday its funny because it clearly says in there rules that if someone is waiting more then 3 minutes (peak times) that isnt sufficient time to buy a ticket if your train is already there, people have jobs and lives simply wanting to not miss your train and purchase one on the train which is fully in your rights its understandable, i myself arent stupid enough to think i could avoid paying.. i waited 3 minutes but my train was there so i boarded and searched for a ticket officer and when i found him he told me i couldnt use my card in his machine but he reassured me theres a ticket booth just before charring cross's barriers so after being reassured i got off the train in charring cross and straight away headed to the fares booth asked the young lady for a ticket from tonbridge to london charring cross she then told me her card machine was broken aswell and that she would get someone so she did two men come from the other side of the barriers came up to the fares booth and fine'd me.. it is again put in south easterns rules that if there is no way to buy a ticket its appealable, now you may be thinking if your one of those sadistic revenue officers that oh why didnt you get one before you boarded your train, well a person who works for south eastern told me to just board the train and get a ticket on the train, theres rules set down for that to.

- Chris, Kent, 01/11/2011 19:42
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I purchased a ticket, got on the train. When the inspector came by and asked for my ticket I showed him, and reached in to grab my young persons railcard from my pocket and my wallet was gone! I tried to explain this, stating that I had indeed intended to pay for my journey - I had paid, I had the ticket in my hand. Yes I realised it was therefore invalid due to not having my YP railcard but I didn't know at the time of buying the ticket! Obviously now I had no wallet/bank cards etc to pay whatever I would have had to pay. I received a letter in the post and I replied explaining my situation. I didn't hear back and about 3 months later I moved out of that place. So I hope that was the end of it.

- Steve, London, UK, 27/10/2011 12:12
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my son went one stop. he did purchase a ticket but discarded it when he got off the train. Father got a fine through some week later for £20.00 (fare was 1.50)officer has noted on original ticket about purchased ticket but couldnt produce. father is partially sighted and needs large printleter - ashe was being fined letter was sent back asking for large print. next letter received was 60.39 final notice from solicitors to which he hasnt responded yet as he cant read the rint is too small. he did not receive an initial demand from solicitors (refers to previous letter sent) what can he do?

- mrs cullen, merseyside, 07/10/2011 09:29
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Some advice needed, please.
Back in June 2011, I was at the Brighton Station, wanting to go to the London Victoria Station. At the station I came up to the barriers to get my ticket checked if it was valid. The ticket controller wasn't sure and told me to check it with an inspector. When I gave my ticket to the inspector, he told me it was invalid and accused me of trying to break the law by avoiding to pay for a ticket and so he needed to get my details. I was shocked by those words and told him that I had no means of trying to avoid paying for my ticket as I wasn't on the train and just wanted to check my ticket, I was in a rush and asked him if I could quickly buy a valid ticket. The other two members of railway staff, which were there supported my decision, but the inspector said, that I should give him my details. After I gave him my detail, he gave me a paper which said, that I needed to send a season ticket to Southern Prosecution Department within 14 day, or there would be a prosecution. That inspector told me to talk to a member of staff at the London Victoria Station about this when I get there. However no one from the staff at Victoria didn't really know what I needed to do and just advised me to send an explanation letter to The Southern Prosecution Department. I sent my explanation letter to them but it's october now and I still haven't received a reply for them. Can someone please tell me what I should do? Can i get a criminal record for this misunderstanding?

- Nick, Brighton, 05/10/2011 19:08
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Some advice needed, please.
Back in June 2011, I was at the Brighton Station, wanting to go to the London Victoria Station. At the station I came up to the barriers to get my ticket checked if it was valid. The ticket controller wasn't sure and told me to check it with an inspector. When I gave my ticket to the inspector, he told me it was invalid and accused me of trying to break the law by avoiding to pay for a ticket and so he needed to get my details. I was shocked by those words and told him that I had no means of trying to avoid paying for my ticket as I wasn't on the train and just wanted to check my ticket, I was in a rush and asked him if I could quickly buy a valid ticket. The other two members of railway staff, which were there supported my decision, but the inspector said, that I should give him my details. After I gave him my detail, he gave me a paper which said, that I needed to send a season ticket to Southern Prosecution Department within 14 day, or there would be a prosecution. That inspector told me to talk to a member of staff at the London Victoria Station about this when I get there. However no one from the staff at Victoria didn't really know what I needed to do and just advised me to send an explanation letter to The Southern Prosecution Department. I sent my explanation letter to them but it's october now and I still haven't received a reply for them. Can someone please tell me what I should do? Can i get a criminal record for this misunderstanding?

- Nick, Brighton, 05/10/2011 19:06
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Thank You for your comments Terrance.
Even though you have pretty much stated what I have already done so myself.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 30/08/2011 14:54
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Claire and - Ex - Revenue Inspector, London

I am afraid the answer is yes, on certain Toc's whom are in a penalty fare scheme, some or at least one uses this practice and breaks DFT guideline regarding setting their authorised collectors revenue targets.


Sure enough
One company in particular
Uses a measure
To put pressure on their
Humble Revenue inspectors
Even though the DFT guidelines
Rightly say
No

I believe the official target set by the new management which is an impossible one to achieve unless when issuing penalty fares the inspectors discretion goes out the window. The inspectors of this company will soon be breaking all the guidelines to achieve these targets if they are not already.

- Terrence, Surrey, 26/08/2011 13:27
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Claire - At the end of every month a Revenue Protection manager will go through the employee's figures with them. This includes the number of Penalty Fares issued, The number of MG11s issued and ticket sales.
The manager is normally known for questioning why the Inspector has collected less Penalty Fares than their previous month and why they are not meeting their averages. This contradicts the agreements that TOCS and Unions have with each other which is that Revenue Protection should not be treated as a target based job, but this hasn't stopped managers that aspire for a promotion to treat it as if it is.
A Revenue Protection Manager that has aspirations to become Senior Management knows that to stand a fighting chance of getting the job, they'd need to show that their team are performing above average, and so high penalty fare numbers are of great importance to them.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 25/08/2011 18:27
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Al - A Season Ticket with Photo card is a must I'm afraid. As I write this, Revenue Protection Staff still are not allowed access to the Season Ticket database. Pressure is on tocs however to have the Season Ticket holder database added to their Mobile Machines to make things fair for genuine customers. Your ticket would hold you Photo I.D Number and an Inspector would want to see that this matches with your Photo I.D card. Your Photo I.D card proves that you are entitled to use the ticket and that it isn't being used fraudulently. I cannot post the link, but have a look at the National Rail Conditions Of Carriage's Season Ticket section for more in-depth detail.

- Ex- Revenue Inspector, London, 25/08/2011 18:18
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Is it true Revenue inspectors have targets to meet?

I overheard 3 of them talking at my local station, they were saying they were all down on their points and discussing whom needed to do the next penalty.

If this is the case that is bad news for customers if train companies are setting targets to their revenue staff as I was led to believe these staff were allowed to use discretion, but if train company management are setting targets then surely these inspectors discretion will go out the window.

What do others think? what is the DFT doing about this?

- claire smith, North London, 24/08/2011 23:35
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Mr King - Most Train companies require the inspectors Badge number. Those that don't would normally have to wear a name badge showing their full name. For example: John Smith instead of just John. This allows the customer to make a complaint if they feel the inspector was rude. Penalty fare notices that require the inspector to add their badge number will help the TOC trace the Penalty Fare back to the exact inspector that issued it. Every Penalty Fare notice is a legal document and each blank space must be filled in.

Dave - Unfortunately travelling beyond the validity of your ticket can lead to a Penalty Fare but when the customer is actually offering to correct their own mistake the inspector can show discretion. Most TOCs encourage inspectors to use discretion particularly at Peak Times when a number of trains don't go by their normal calling pattern.
When you are charged a Penalty however at FCC and choose not to pay anything. FCC tell their inspectors to issue an MG11 (Witness Statement) when someone doesn't pay either a full Penalty Fare or part of it.
You will be sent a letter from the company giving you the opportunity to write to them explaining your case. The more detail you can provide, the better. Do you have any previous unpaid penalty fares perhaps? if the answer is no, then include it. It will be harder for them to send it to court if you have no previous.
From what you've told me they should just send you a 'Warn Fare' - a warning not to do it again.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 24/08/2011 15:19
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Train companies like FCC are targeting honest working people who have paid for their tickets with prosecution threats and criminal records in order to make millions from settling out of court. Rather than catching real fare evaders who do not pay for any tickets, they are targeting genunine fare paying passengers who may have made honest mistake by not offering the choice to pay for 'a valid fare' or 'warning' as they know that honest passengers will pay them more than £100s to avoid going to court. Real fare evaders are being let lose with a warning as they know that these evaders have no money even if threaten with criminal record or prosecution threat. Let stand up against these bullies who are making millions of us! Boycott FCC and their bullying RPI!

- Genie, UK, 22/08/2011 21:31
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I bought a £94 pound weekly ticket from a machine today. I didn't have my photocard with me but I know the numbers, so I put those on my ticket.
Had my ticket inspected, but in spite of having the receipt, the credit card I paid for the £94 ticket with and alternative photo ID (my drivers licence), they took my ticket from me as I didn't have the photocard with me. I asked them to look my my photo card number and details on their system. I was told "I am going to deal with this be issuing you with a penalty fare and confiscating your ticket".
I refused to sign the notice of the penalty fare or to hand over any further identification. I was told that the Police would be called. I was late for work so in the end I gave them my details.
I feel very aggrieved though - I spent £94 on this ticket and they can clearly see I bought it. This has never happened before when I've had a weekly ticket checked. To cap it all off when I got off the train I realised that I'd been charged for riding in first class!
These train companies are holding us to ransom - I wish I'd been stronger and held out and complained to the Police that I'd had my ticket stolen!

- Al Willmott, Bedford UK, 16/08/2011 14:35
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Hey I had a ticket for my journey but missed my stop so I got off at the next stop to go back. First capital connect wanted me to pay £20 for getting 1 stop further than my ticket allowed which would cost in theory £1.50 . I refused and they will write to me. Do I have a case? Is it likely they can send me to prison?

- Dave, Herts, 07/08/2011 19:24
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Do all rail companies require the Inspectors badge number and for the inspector to sign and date the penalty notice. I have reviewed a penalty notice and there is no space for the inspector to sign.

- Mr King, London, England, 27/07/2011 21:11
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Here are some tips if you receive a Penalty Fare...

1) Check the Penalty Notice in full detail. The inspector needs to write their collector's badge number, sign it, date it, where you travelled from and where you are going to and a reason must be ticked explaining why they have penalty fared you. If you pay in full, the inspector should ask you if you wish to leave your name and address. It is not necessary to give your name and address if you pay the penalty in full but if you wish to appeal, it can help to support your honesty if you did. If they having filled in any of the aforementioned or there are errors present your chances of winning an appeals becomes much greater.

2) If the person being penalty fared is considered a child by law, then one of their parents names needs to be written in the Parent/Guardian section, their date of birth needs to be written in there too and the fact the person is under 18.
Again, if this isn't filled in your chance of winning increase if you decide to appeal.


3) If you are told by a member of staff that you can board a train then an inspector cannot penalty fare you.
If you look in the SRA Penalty Fare rules book which can be viewed online, it states this.
An inspector will ask you details of the location that you were told this, and may even ask you to describe the uniform. You can only escape a penalty fare if the member of staff works for the same company as the inspector. Don't lie however as some inspectors may check.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 22/07/2011 23:21
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Please be aware that this article mentions about refusing to pay anything towards a Penalty Fare.
I strongly advise against this, as Revenue Protection Managers and the Operators prosecution departments are instructing their staff to complete MG11 Prosecution notice forms with anyone that refuses to pay at least a partial amount of the Penalty Fare. A Partial payment, is where you can pay for the cost of the ticket for the journey you've just made put towards the Penalty Fare.
An MG11 however, means the Train Company, will be treating you as if you deliberately intend to avoid your fare regardless of whether this is the case or not. Most of these are taken to court where you could be paying anything from £75 - £1000 depending on the case.
Nil Paid Penalty Fares are rarely issued now due to the fact it costs the operator to process every penalty fare, an MG11 doesn't cost anything.

- Ex Revenue Protection Inspector, London, 17/07/2011 00:47
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Hi Sarah,

You say you brought the ticket from the internet. There's a chance it could be an Advanced type ticket. These allow travel at a cheap rate as long as travel is made on the correct train for which you booked.
Rules for advanced type tickets are much stricter than rules for the normal and more costly 'Off - Peak' or 'Anytime' fares.
Considering some proof had to be shown to prove he'd brought a ticket your husband sounds like he was treated extremely harshly.
Yes, you can complain directly to Virgin (details of their customer service address is available from their website) If you have details of the penalty fare number issued they will be able to look in to the full details of the case so far.
Ensure you include full details of the case and any supporting evidence that you have.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 16/07/2011 02:26
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To conclude Lauren,

An Mg11 is a legal document that train companies will put before the courts if they are not satisfied with your response.
I see you mention that you are pregnant, you can use this to support your case too. Inspectors should be lenient with anyone who is pregnant. Discretion should be shown to anyone who is pregnant, disabled, pregnant and a mother and baby.

Key areas to support your case are:

1) Your pregnancy
2) The Help point going unanswered when you attempted to seek help with buying a ticket.

- EX - Revenue Inspector, London, 16/07/2011 02:02
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Hi Lauren,

I see you travel with First Capital Connect. You say that the Inspector charged £30 for the Penalty Fare.
A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the single fare, whichever is the greater amount is the amount that you'd be charged.
The full anytime single fare from Luton to St Pancras is £15. As two single fares are £30 the inspector did charge the correct amount for the Penalty Fare.
First Capital Connect tell staff that if the person they are charging a penalty fare doesn't pay at least the single fare towards the penalty fare an MG11 notice should be completed.
The inpsector would of asked you questions about your journey, you may remember being asked a question such as 'Do you have a valid ticket or authority to travel?'
For every question they ask, they are required to write your exact answer. This does include any frustrated outbursts I'm afraid.

Once complete, they will say that they have to keep hold of the form where you answered all the questions and report it to the company, they then give you the small tear - off slip at the bottom which allows one single trip to your destination.
The company then contacts you, and gives you the chance to contact them. This is your opportunity to include as much detail as possible. An important part is when you mention you attempted to use the help point for assistance with buying a ticket, but you received no answer. Also include, that you want to make a complaint about the inspector..

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 16/07/2011 01:56
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"i have recieved the warning from the train company first greatwestern to pay a sum of £40 or the situation could lead to maximum of three months in prison. when i failed to produce my ticket i told the reasons asd to why being that the machine at the station only accepted card and i didnt have one and the ticket office was shut and the permit machine was queued longer than 5minutes and my train was pulling in. i am unsure as to what i should do as i when produced a warning i had stated that i could pay in full cash there the train fare but they had refused.

- sam, slough, 13/06/2011 13:44"

Sam, I could do with a little more detail on this to help you with your answer. Does your station normally have a manned ticket office or ticket machine? If it does and the member of staff was sick, other employees would be aware of this and if the queue was long then you could have a case to argue.

- EX - Revenue Inspector, London, 16/07/2011 01:33
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On Tuesday 12th July 2011 around 7pm I got on at Finsbury Park (had monthlyzone 2/3 travelcard) intending to go to the Haringey mainline station but to my dismay and annoyance ended up on a fast train to Stevenage - first stop New Southgate. Once at New Southgate I wanted to go back to Haringey but was collared by an extremely rude and non-sympathetic ticket inspector who was adamant in stating that I was attempting to fare evade. I showed her proof of my travel intentions via a message on my blackberry that I was due 2 collect some items from an adress in N4 - the person giving me the items asked me to b there before 7.45pm.

She then proceeded to say I will have to pay an penalty fare which I flatly refused to do and as her demeanour only sought to escalate my frustration and anger I asked to be dealt with by another of her colleagues and the supervisor. Even then she continued to bias their opinions by not allowing me to state my case without making her opinion known several times before.

The supervisor and the other inspector agreed that I could pay just the single fare (£2.80)as I was out of zone and that I should appeal to get this back. I gave my true details and only when I got on the train back did I notice that inspector that issued the ticket had noted me as "not having a ticket" and also the note itself was just a penalty notice so I would still b "liable" to pay the remainder (£17.20)
More than anything the 1st inspectors attitude was what I detested.

- Lewis, London, England, 14/07/2011 14:15
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This must be the most read and commented upon article in the Evening Standard website. Well Done Mr Gilligan. When I read some of the comments of people who have pretty much been mugged by Inspectors it makes me think there should be somebody who has the power to arbitrate between passengers and rail companies. Some of the behaviour by Inspectors is truly appalling.

- Robert, Sevenoaks, 08/07/2011 15:55
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Please could I have some help? My husband bought his ticket online a few days before traveling. On his return journey from London on 21st April (day before bank hol, the platform etc was bedlam with insufficient staff for number of passengers traveling)all of the Virgin systems were down so there was huge confusion on the platform and lots of very unhappy passengers. When everyone boarded the train there were no seats and an announcement was made that those without seats could upgrade to 1st class where there was seats and there was a stampede with people getting pushed and crushed etc. My husband was stopped during the journey to check his ticket and he couldn't find it and presumed he had dropped it in the stampede so he showed his email via his phone to show he had bought a ticket but was accused of selling his ticket to someone else so was given a penalty. He came home and has since found his ticket in his wallet and I have written to Revenue Protection explaining the situation - they have said our appeal has been unsuccessful and we need to pay £179.50. Who can we complain to? He paid for his ticket online, he has receipts and the original ticket. There was good reason why he couldn't find his ticket when asked on the train because it was complete bedlam with people complaining about a member of Virgin Train staff and the whole situation but he is not a fare dodger.

- Sarah, Lancashire, 23/06/2011 13:21
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Hi I was just wondering if anyone could help..myself and 3 friends was running really late for a concert a few months ago..we had to get train from our local station and travel on the underground..when we got to the station the ticket office was closed and we were really confused as to what ticket to purchase as it said zones a&b etc..I pressed the information button but no-one answered...so we all got on the train with the intention of explaining what had happened to the ticket inspectors at st pancres and purchase tickets from them..we were all aware there are barriers at st pancres so we just assumed we would be able to buy tickets there...when onboard the train a ticket inspector approached us..we explained what had happened and asked if we could purchase a ticket of him..he was very rude and refused to accept the fare of us..we all had cash and could pay there and then..the ticket inspector demanded £30 fine from us all..we refused to pay the fine as we had every intentions of buying a ticket and wasn't sure of the legality of him plucking up a random train fine of the top of his head for us to pay..he kept us for over an hour interviewing us..he allowed me to go toilet as I am pregnant and told my friends that they would be held at the station if I did not return..a few weeks later we received a letter saying we had to write to them about why we didn't pay our fair..and we may get anything from a fine to going to prison..one of my friends didn't receive this letter and just got a £50 fine through the post..2 of my friends replied, I didn't as I had already explained myself to the ticket inspector and he wrote down my comments in the interview..now the 2 of my friends are facing court next month and paying court fees..and I've heard nothing back?

- lauren, luton, 21/06/2011 12:18
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Just to add...

Train companies are against the issue of Nil Paid Penalty Fares because there is a £5 - £8 processing charge with the appeals system who they have to send a copy off to. However, they are obliged to accept that in cases somebody has attempted to pay (which your son has) an inspector may issue a Nil Paid.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 17/06/2011 16:34
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Hi Maggie,

It sounds as if your son has had to complete an MG11 prosecutions notice statement.
He can be asked up to 5 questions concerning his journey, one of which may of been something like "was it your intension to avoid your rail fare?"
An inspector will have to write his exact answer.

Here are a pointers you should consider raising for your son's case -

- Your son has a Visa Electron card and therefore has the means to pay. If the rail
company concerned doesn't accept Visa Electron then that's there problem and not his.

- An inspector could of come to agreement with your son where he can pay for his ticket at the destination station. Most stations have an ATM machine nearby where he could of taken money out and paid for it in cash. To confirm the agreement, an inspector could of provided a note saying "card not valid, agreed to pay at station using the ATM by cash.

- He attempted to pay for his ticket at the start of his journey. You can ask that they get the CCTV footage to prove this. If he can remember the approximate time he got to the station as well this will help.

- Your son can have somebody else pay for his ticket at the destination should the inspector not be satisfied. This requires the inspector to leave the phone
Number of the destination station to the person that has agreed to
pay. That person phones up to pay for the ticket and the ticket office phones to
Confirm it's been paid for.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 17/06/2011 16:23
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i have recieved the warning from the train company first greatwestern to pay a sum of £40 or the situation could lead to maximum of three months in prison. when i failed to produce my ticket i told the reasons asd to why being that the machine at the station only accepted card and i didnt have one and the ticket office was shut and the permit machine was queued longer than 5minutes and my train was pulling in. i am unsure as to what i should do as i when produced a warning i had stated that i could pay in full cash there the train fare but they had refused.

- sam, slough, 13/06/2011 13:44
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I think mine is the worst case! My son has been issued with a court summons for not having a valid ticket and with intent to avoid payment. The train company issued this because he handed over his debit card to pay on the train as there was no ticket master on the station at the time, and he was told they did not accept it as it was a visa electron. He was not even issued with a penalty fare notice as in the enforcement officers statement he says that he started to issue one but didnt as my son had no means to pay for it!! But I thought you had 21 days to pay it? My son was willing to pay for a ticket. So now if he doesnt win his case he may have a criminal record. He has to deicide wether to plea guilty and not attend court, or not guilty and try to prove his case, but with a possible hefty fine and court costs if he loses. We are just not sure why he wasnt issued with a penalty fare notice, anyone out there know why this could have happened? At least by paying that he could have avoided all of this.

- maggie, kent, 11/06/2011 16:45
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Mike,

In this situation you should have been let off, regardless of how certain the gate staff at your destination thought they were.
If you have already been authorised travel and then had your ticket stamped, it should not be treated as a concern for the simple reason that if they attempted to Penalty Fare you, you'd win without a problem. The proof you have been authorised travel is on your ticket, as it's been stamped. It therefore makes it hard for the appeals system to take the side of Revenue Protection.
If they attempted to do the MG11 (Prosecutions Notice) again, when you get the letter, you have the stamped ticket as your evidence to accompany your letter.
State the following.

- You were authorised travel at the start of your journey and details of the ticket concerned.

- The Inspector on the train authorised the ticket and stamped it. (This is your proof that you have been authorised to travel to your destination)

The train company concerned is therefore obliged to accept this ticket to allow you to travel and if the people at your destination are concerned the matter should of been mentioned to their team leader that they were not happy with their colleagues decisions to authorise the travel.

Remember that an inspector who stamps your ticket has authorised you to complete your journey.

- Ex - Revenue Inspector, London, 11/06/2011 00:44
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I have traveled on ticket believed to be invalid by some and valid by others.

Before traveling, I told the ticket agent at the gate why I believe my ticket is valid. He agreed with my argument, opened the gate and allowed me to travel.

In the train, the ticket inspector checked my ticket. He agreed it is valid and stamped it. The stamp is clearly visible, showing the date of travel and train identity.

The gate staff at the destination claimed my ticket is not valid. I argued with them, stating that two other railway employees authorized me to travel by
(1) opening the gate
(2) stamping my ticket

Police was called. They told me I no longer have the right to pay the penalty fare, but will face legal action in order to "pay" for their time lost dealing with me.

Does opening the gate means the passenger is authorized to travel to the destination listed on the ticket on the train he states he intends to take ?

When a ticket inspector stamps the ticket, does it mean that the train company
(1) accepts the ticket for travel on said train to or towards the destination listed on the ticket?
(2) the ticket becomes used, loses its value, and the train company has to provide the travel service contracted through the ticket they accepted?

Or, is the customer responsible for having a valid ticket and always has to watch out for and assume responsibility for any mistakes of the railway?

It is now a criminal offense. Awaiting the letter from the court. Any ideas? Advice?

- Mike, London, 18/05/2011 16:07
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"Would be good to know where we stand with 'permit to travels'. Didn't get a 20p permit as I didn't have any change on me, it doesn't allow you to insert any notes and there isn't a cash machine on the station, yet still got a penalty notice. I plan to appeal but would be good to know what the deal is with these permits.

Thanks

- Seema Soni, Kent, 06/05/2011 13:23"

Hi Seema,

A Permit To Travel gives you 2 hours to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity - allowing you to break the rule 'Please buy a ticket before you travel'. You only need to put in your spare change, it is not necessary to put the full cost of a ticket in to a permit machine.
The idea is you either approach a member of ticket selling staff or a member of revenue protection, present them with your permit and they'll sell you a ticket. You will only need to pay the difference however and not the entire cost of a ticket. For example: if you put 50p in the permit machine and the ticket costs £3, you'd only need to pay £2.50.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 12/05/2011 13:24
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Hi Joe,

In your particular case, discretion would of be shown had you been able to present both your receipt and your card to the inspector. The inspector can write a note on the back of your ticket saying they've authorised you to travel.

Inspectors are often briefed reminding them of why penalty fares would normally have to be issued to those that have either lost their ticket or partly lost their ticket and when discretion can be shown to a customer in certain cases.

Reasons rail bosses say a penalty fare should be issued include:

1) Ticket touts - they beg for a customer to pass on their ticket and then sell it on at a discounted rate to someone else, normally only giving one part of a two part return. Inspectors are constantly reminded of this issue.

2) Passing tickets on to others - Rail bosses are also more aware of cases of dishonesty where one part of a two part return is passed on to a friend in order for to to save money. From a train operators view point - this is considered to be fraud.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 12/05/2011 13:06
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"Some advise please...
I discovered this weekend that a yearly ticket I purchased at a travel centre in gatwick didn't have a magnetic strip, the police officer advised me that I have either been had by someone nearly a year ago that sold me a fake ticket or there is a printing issue, correct me please, but I thought the magnetic strip is on the ticket before it's printed. I have been looking for a number to call the southern prosecutions department in order for them to investigate but cannot find one. Also I got the inpression that I had to appeal my case, my other question is will they look at cctv to see who sold me the ticket? I have been reading and getting the impression that all they want to do it prosecute for the sake of it, where does that leave me???"

Normally, a yearly/annual season ticket has a magnetic strip on the reverse of it Sandy, yes. Rail annual season tickets are credit card sized and are known as Gold Cards.
All credit card sized tickets will have a magnetic strip on the reverse, it is activated once a ticket has been printed.
It is advised to call the Southern customer service department, their job would be to pass the details on that you have provided them with to the prosecutions department, it may also be wise to send a letter too as back up, the address is also available on the Southern website.
Provide them with significant information such as approximate time, date, rough description. The more detail provided the better the investigation.

- EX Revenue Inspector, London, 12/05/2011 12:28
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Would be good to know where we stand with 'permit to travels'. Didn't get a 20p permit as I didn't have any change on me, it doesn't allow you to insert any notes and there isn't a cash machine on the station, yet still got a penalty notice. I plan to appeal but would be good to know what the deal is with these permits.

Thanks

- Seema Soni, Kent, 06/05/2011 13:23
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Yesterday I made a trip from Waterloo to Weybridge, and my ticket to Weybridge dropped out of my pocket as I answered my mobile on the train, so I lost the ticket. I explained the situation to the ticket inspector, showing him my ticket for the return leg, also I use young person's rail card, thus the lost ticket would have been little use to most. Anyway, the inspector insisted on giving me a £20 penalty fare. It just happened that yesterday I was in such a hurry to catch the train, I only grabbed the two tickets as they got printed and not the receipt, it proved costly...

The ticket inspector first stated that if I had my receipt he would be able to let me go. He then followed by saying: since I could have given my ticket to someone else, he had to give me a penalty fare. This is most confusing, does this mean if I had my receipt then I could not have given my ticket to someone else, and so that I would not be liable for the penalty fare? I tried to explain to him that he was not making sense, and asked him to clarify the situation. He was however unable to understand the confusion he had caused, and insisted to issue me a notice.

Luckily for me I did not pay it on the spot, even though he tried to get me to do so by promising if I could prove purchase at a later date I can appeal and get my money back.

I would like to know, is it true that if I can prove my purchase (credit card), then I would not be penalized, or did he lie to me about this.

- Joe Kelly, London, 04/05/2011 10:29
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Some advise please...
I discovered this weekend that a yearly ticket I purchased at a travel centre in gatwick didn't have a magnetic strip, the police officer advised me that I have either been had by someone nearly a year ago that sold me a fake ticket or there is a printing issue, correct me please, but I thought the magnetic strip is on the ticket before it's printed. I have been looking for a number to call the southern prosecutions department in order for them to investigate but cannot find one. Also I got the inpression that I had to appeal my case, my other question is will they look at cctv to see who sold me the ticket? I have been reading and getting the impression that all they want to do it prosecute for the sake of it, where does that leave me???

- Sandy, Surrey, 26/04/2011 17:38
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Melissa,

Unless a train operating company offers seat reservations, your ticket would not guarantee you a seat on the train. Unfortunately, you'd be expected to stand if you are unable to find a seat in Standard Class. Many who sit in First Class on a Standard Class ticket are falling victim to what I call the instant cash - in for the train operators.
FCC is a train operator that would demand that it's inspectors complete MG11 notices with it's passengers who don't want to pay anything towards a Penalty Fare. This is a prosecutions notice which ranges from £75 - £1000. I usually aqvise that it's best to be willing to pay for the cost of a ticket or agree to pay the difference for 1st Class and agree to have that put towards your Penalty Fare. You can then put your case to the appeals system stating why you feel you wish to not pay the rest. Please be aware that if you only pay Part of the amount towards a Penalty Fare, it is necessary for the inspector to take your name and address.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 21/04/2011 22:14
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"Got on a First Capital Connect train this evening. Train sat in station for approx 10 mins. During this time, I watched two ticket inspectors issue tickets to two people already on train when I got on. As train began to move, they began checking everyone else's tickets. I handed over my pay as you go oyster card only to be told that I hadn't activated it at the station (I did!) and was now subject to £20 penalty fine! Unbelievable! I refused to pay £20 and (without having seen this article) only agreed to pay single fare. They told me I can appeal as they will hold an investigation to see if the card readers at the station are truly faulty. What do you all think?

- Jane D, London, 28/03/2011 22:56"

If you write a letter to the address stating why you think you were unfairly Penalty fared. I assume you felt the reader you attempted to touch your Oyster on was faulty. Include this in your letter, along with the name of the station that you touched in. If you request for them to undertake checks, they will have to carry them out and then write back to you with the results.
Whenever you write a letter to the appeals system, you should always state why you feel it was unfair, the full details of your version of events, including things like dates, times etc. Any supporting evidence as well which is normally sent as copies. This can even include a photo of the faulty reader.

- Ex- Revenue Inspector, London, 13/04/2011 16:31
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Got on a First Capital Connect train this evening. Train sat in station for approx 10 mins. During this time, I watched two ticket inspectors issue tickets to two people already on train when I got on. As train began to move, they began checking everyone else's tickets. I handed over my pay as you go oyster card only to be told that I hadn't activated it at the station (I did!) and was now subject to £20 penalty fine! Unbelievable! I refused to pay £20 and (without having seen this article) only agreed to pay single fare. They told me I can appeal as they will hold an investigation to see if the card readers at the station are truly faulty. What do you all think?

- Jane D, London, 28/03/2011 22:56
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I was traveling to london kings cross on a full train with 3 friends, train was really busy and first class had 9 empty seats, as this train was going straight to kings cross we thought we would just sit down, as these seats where unoccupied, just pulling into kings cross when two ticket inspectors come in, they asked for our tickets which all of us had travel cards, when they were taken of us all and told we are traveling illegally, 20 pound instant fine each, asked how we wanted to pay cash credit or debit card, all of us where in shock. if we didnt pay there and then it would be 39 pound and they will call the police when we get of, told them to call the police then. as we stood on the platform argueing about how and what to pay i was asked to go on another train of which i had no ticket for and read the poliy of first class, i declined this offer. then we was asked how much money do we all have, john the inspector said that if we all pay 10 each there and then we wouldnt have to pay anymore and no notice in the post and his colleague agreed this. so we all paid 10 each. but for some reason john went back on what he said and two of us that had paid the 10 then was told a penalty notice will be in the post for the other 10, but my two other friands only had to pay 10. when i questioned whay john denied all knowledge of what he had said about only paying the 10, he said god will decide??!!

- melissa, hertfordshire, 18/02/2011 18:10
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The station I come from is Edenbridge which is unmanned has no ticket machine, and permit to travel which rarely works. Yet I have always found in my case when coming from edenbridge to tonbridge if there is BTP I just tell them that I came from edenbridge can I buy a ticket which has always been fine and I've never been charged. After reading what everyone has writen I'm now really worried, and was wondering if the permit to travel is working can I get charged because it only takes cash not card and I don't always have any change.

- amanda, Edenbridge, 28/01/2011 10:20
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In addition Kelly,
It's worth remembering that until they contact you, they cannot do anything. You have a right to know what their decision is and what they are going to do.
If you phone them, try to call during normal office hours and aim for mornings.
Revenue Protection appeals services are said to be independant organisations, and many tranport companies can use the same one. So consider calling at different times, especially first thing in the morning.
If you ever have a lack of money in the future for travelling. Please ensure you approach a ticket seller first to inform them and they will act accordingly to ensure you don't have any future problems.

- Revenue Inspector, London, 13/12/2010 17:01
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"Hello, i am a full time student with no money basically. i have been accused twice of not having a valid ticket yet have both recipts of purchase. i have written to them on several occassions with no reply. my mum is scared of the house being blacklisted if i do not pay the now £75 bill for a £1.20 bus journey. i have even rang them with no one to speak to will an automaticed number dial no customer services or compliants!!!, i do not know what to do and may have to go around my family to obtain the cash. i believe i have been full wronged what should i do help......

- kelly maria, blackheath, 01/12/2010 23:46"

Hello Kelly,
Unfortunately, with all public tranpsport their policies were never decided to be 100% fair to those that full victim to the Penalty Fare.
With both trains and buses, if you have lost your ticket you would be expected to buy a new one regardless of the proof you have. Unfortunately transport operators can argue that a receipt can easily be passed on to a friend as a method of conning the system. Whilst not everybody does this, unfortunately there have been cases where people do exactly that and in order to protect revenue, staff are expected to issue penalty fares.
You mention that you have had wrtten to the company concerned. First of all, please ensure it's to the correct address on the slip that was given to you and please also bear in mind that if you haven't received a reply from them not to worry about things at this time.

- Revenue Inspector, London, 13/12/2010 16:55
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I have recently read up well on the matters concerning penalty fares and have one sat right here on my desk - reason ommited. I have zero intention to pay it at all and also consider that because I owned a valid season ticket at the time (only forgot it at home this passed monday morning) I do not owe them even the cost of a single.

I think it might be worth mentioning in the article that a Penalty Fare differs from an Unpaid Fare notice.

- George Hafiz, Portsmouth, 08/12/2010 20:53
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Hello, i am a full time student with no money basically. i have been accused twice of not having a valid ticket yet have both recipts of purchase. i have written to them on several occassions with no reply. my mum is scared of the house being blacklisted if i do not pay the now £75 bill for a £1.20 bus journey. i have even rang them with no one to speak to will an automaticed number dial no customer services or compliants!!!, i do not know what to do and may have to go around my family to obtain the cash. i believe i have been full wronged what should i do help......

- kelly maria, blackheath, 01/12/2010 23:46
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"I think mine is real worse case scenario stuff, I Couldn't buy a ticket because the ticket machine was broken and having an inkling of my rights I refused to pay the penalty fine and insisted on buying a ticket. At which point an off duty police man turned round and barked that I had committed a criminal offense, and forced me to pay the penalty fare.

Just to reiterate, the police forced me to pay an illegal penalty fare!

- Ben Robinson, Esher, Surrey, 12/09/2010 01:25"

Ben, if the machine wasn't working and the ticket office was closed then whoever penalty fared you was completely in th wrong. An inspector can only penalty fare you if he or she is aware that there is either one of the following...

1) A functioning ticket machine

2) An open and manned ticket office.

3) A functioning Permit to travel machine (if your station has one)

If none of the above are working, then you should of had a successful appeal and if you didn't, you take the case to court and you claim your money back through the court. Under no circumstance can an inspector penalty fare somebody if there are no ticket buying facilities at the station for where you commenced the journey. The advise on this however, is to buy your ticket at the first available opportunity. So if you have to change trains during your journey, there may be staff at the station where you change and you should buy your ticket there. Otherwise if you are on a direct service, you buy at the end of the trip.

- Ex Revenue Protection Inspector, London, 24/11/2010 21:54
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Ben Robinson, you should have politely told the off duty police officer to mind his own business. There is no police power to demand payment of anything, something along the lines of "I haven't committed any offence, if you believe otherwise I'll give you my name and address and you can report me to court for summons" would have shut him up.

- Ivan, Bristol, UK, 16/11/2010 18:02
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Lilly, Unfortunately the Penalty Fare system is not meant to be fair, the only reason it is allowed, is because they have an appeals system.
Even members of rail staff are not exempt from it.

I've read your story Lilly and I do sympathise when you say it's not fair, because it isn't. Unfortunately, the train operator would expect you to ensure that you have tapped in and out (one single beep from the oyster validator confirms this)
If you haven't, then the train company would hold you responsible for your own actions in this case, and would be looking at a penalty fare being issued.
An inspector cannot take your oyster from you however, and if you would rather pay the maximum cash fare then that inspector should let you.


Ben, once again, I can see that an honest mistake has been made here. But unfortunately, a train operator would argue that they'd have no way of knowing as to whether you were telling the truth as unfortunately alot of people will lie that said, a penalty fare could be issued for travelling beyond the validility of your ticket.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 08/11/2010 13:14
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Having read through your list i have noticed that some of the information is outdated or ever so slightly incorrect.
Two: seems sound but several other grey areas do accrue with different types of tickets, for example certain off route tickets may be considered as actually travelled beyond validity but thats dependant on specific journeys.
Four: also is not entirely correct. As a "NIL" paid penalty fare is another option.
Five: at the time of this article being produced i know for sure that there was another independent appeals company whom were working who you did not list.
Seven: The name of the Inspector, Assistant or Officer may not appear on the notice but that will depend on the individual company however their authorised collectors number will be present.
Eight: Depends on the company in which a penalty fare was issued different company offer different approaches. Certain companies do not send a letter requesting payment so you telling a customer to wait for a letter may incur admin fees as a letter will be sent after the 21 day window would have passed. For the Train operating companies whom dont send letter that would be explained by the staff member and defined on the back of the notice. So my question is how much have you cost people rather then saved them? Also cases on non payment to penalty fares being taken to magistrates courts are on the up and judges do tend to take the side of the TOC.
All in all bad show on this article with the amount of missing info.

- Unimpressed - but what do you expect, it is the standard?, London, 03/11/2010 21:13
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People. Please we have to do something about this. IT IS NOT FAIR: My story … I travelled from Kidbrooke to Charing Cross. I topped up my Oyster and jump on the train. I wasn’t sure whether I touched in or not. Got to Charing Cross, as a honest citizen went to the ticket officer to check if I touched in. To his delight, I didn’t! Which means I will be charged £20 penalty fare? I said give me my card back and I'll simply just touch out at the barriers, and get charged £6 instead of the usual £2.60. He said sorry, you've travelled illegally, blah,blah.. So I told him I will not pay £20 and I will not give him my details because I dont want to get any letters from them. He called the police. At this point I was very angry and as an emotional person, I began to cry, I told the police I don’t mind being arrested for this. I made it clear to the police that over and over again loads of honest people all over this country are being penalised unfairly in different areas, not just train fares. He agreed with me that it is my honesty that has got me to this point. So he said as the officer if I refuse to pay or give my details I will be arrested, they will take my DNA, thumb print, etc and I might loose my job, get a criminal record etc. Though I wasn’t scared of all these empty threats, At this point, I was attracting a lot of attention and knew I couldn't get sense out of anybody so I paid £20. Tho I had the money, £20 is a big deal to a lot of people, imagine earning £5 p/h.

- Lilly, London, 20/10/2010 12:26
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Recently had to take a trip to dartford from london victoria, i had already purchased a travelcard for zones 1 - 6 and before getting on the dartford train i asked an employee on the platform if my travelcard would cover it, he replied yes. When i arrived at Dartford there were British Transport Police at the gates and they informed me that i was "out of zone". I asked by how much and they said just 1 stop. I offered to pay the single fare from the stop before, and i even offered to go back as i had not even passed through the barriers yet. They refused, i was not happy but they assured me i would be able to appeal the fine and most likely not have to pay it, so i gave my name and they issued me a £20 fine. I wrote my letter of appeal as soon as possible, stating i am only 15 years old, in an area i didn't know, only one station out of the zones my ticket covered and was told by BTP that i would be able to successfully appeal.
Weeks later, i received a letter saying my appeal was unsuccessful and because i had not paid within 21 days it had increased to £40 (even though i was waiting for a reply all that time). I have taken no further action and have heard nothing more from them. I just think this shows how hungry for money they really are; have they never heard of the term "discretion"?

- Ben, Beckenham, Kent., 19/10/2010 10:39
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I have been a Revenue Inspector for 5 years and would like to confirm that you can be penalty fared for the following reasons...

1) If you have brought a railcard discount for your ticket but are unable to produce it.

- The rules of the each railcard clearly state that you must be travelling with it, otherwise you can be charged a penalty fare as if you didn't have one.
The best thing to do if you have genuinely lost it, is to pay the difference at the ticket office.

2) Using Oyster outside of the London Travelcard area.

-
If you are unsure about where you can use your oyster the train operators would expect you to seek advice from a member of staff before travelling. For full details of where you can use your Oyster, pick up a London Connections map. Your Oyster Cards can be used to travel to any station within the London Travelcard zonal area, anything outside these zones will get you a penalty fare.


3) If you have no ticket -

An inspector would be looking for some evidence to justify you not having one.

For example: Ticket office was closed and the ticket machine is out of service. If you take photos to prove your case, an inspector can't charge you a penalty fare.


4) The information left by this writer regarding the penalty fare procedure is absolute nonsence.
The appeal centre with First Group is an address in Portsmouth who actually deal with up to 5 Train operators, and they are an independent business.

- Ex Revenue Inspector, London, 20/09/2010 20:28
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I think mine is real worse case scenario stuff, I Couldn't buy a ticket because the ticket machine was broken and having an inkling of my rights I refused to pay the penalty fine and insisted on buying a ticket. At which point an off duty police man turned round and barked that I had committed a criminal offense, and forced me to pay the penalty fare.

Just to reiterate, the police forced me to pay an illegal penalty fare!

- Ben Robinson, Esher, Surrey, 12/09/2010 01:25
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Criminal prosecution for travelling on the railway without paying the fare in my opinion is totally ridiculous. This peice of legislation needs to be changed. Many a career has been ruined all because of a one off careless mistake that has been recorded by an over-zealous ticket inspector with limited training in the law. Surely prosecution should be civil and not criminal as the railways are privately run? It has been known that the train companies and there collaboration with the courts reserve a full day for fare evasion prosecution, which could have been used for far more serious genuine law breaking cases. The defendent who pleads not guilty is not entitled to legal aid, which gives the train companies private prosecutions office a distinct advantage over the innocent who cannot afford the legal fees. This will get worse as there will be more fare evasion prosecutions which will mean more miscarriages of justice especially as train companies are set to further increase there fares.

- CI-HR15, London, 18/08/2010 21:36
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tried to buy a single ticket at Victoria but from East Croydon to Gatwick without any success.boarded the 1647 ex Victoria on 5/4/10 to Gatwick with a pay as you go oyster card. got to Gatwick and asked to pay a £20 Penalty Charge. I declined but did offer to pay the £5 single from E Croydon to Gatwick. Also refused.
in front of a magistrates court in Crawley on 5/8/10 case number 471000271637. watch this space.

- david, alness, IV17 0QD, 03/08/2010 14:35
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Also just looking at the penalty fare notice they have spelt my name and my parents name wrong as Chiswick and not Chidwick does this make the ticket invalid ?

- Jordan, Herne Bay, Kent, 28/06/2010 01:07
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similar problem for me. I rushed to the train station in Chestfield & Swalecliffe i was running late on my bike due to traffic lights and the only change ihad was a £20 note and the permit to travel machine takes no notes and there is no ticket machine or booth. the train came just as i checked the times so i got on the nearest compartment as i was exhausted. I looked up and down the train for a ticket man and i couldn't see him and im not leaving my bike on a train full of people i do not know. I got off the train went straight to the ticket machine to buy a return ticket so i could go back to C&S Later trans police come over what are you doing. ` buying a ticket` sorry your not allowed todo that cancelles my order onthe machine and the man in front of me with his child also has no ticket but they let him buy an adult return. and than tell me i have to pay a£20 fine within the next 2 weeks i offered to pay there but they said no i tried to explain my situation but they ignored me and said sorry i understand i can see where your coming from but you did not have a valid ticket.He than took my details got his partner to verify them gave me a slip and said i can either pay the fine or appeal the decision and said should i do neither within the next 21 days the charge would be doubled and i could be taken to court. please HELP me write my appeal, i think it is ridiculous and even if i had change for a permit the machine at C&H is often turned off or out of order.
He

- Jordan, Kent England, 27/06/2010 14:08
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Get everybody to Lewes County court 22nd June
Southern are suing me for not paying a penalty
tried to buy ticket at Gatwick after arriving from spent 4 mins understanding the machine an twice didnt get ticket so jumped on train so spent 86 quid on air fare but dont wanna spend 8.70 on train ticket.
Went to booth to opay on arriving at Brighton explained to guard what happend told I had to pay penalty.

wrote to them and they insisting on taking me to court for criminal action lol
I am interested in starting a class act against southern so anybody want to join email me at
info @lss1.co.uk

- Alex Jardine, Stonehouse Scotland, 08/06/2010 17:55
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I had to go to London for an interview. Parked at Richmond and purchased a travelcard. On catching the train back to Richmond, I lost my ticket. It probably dropped out of my pocket when I answered my mobile phone that was in the same pocket. I had already gone through the ticket barrier so I know I had the ticket up to that point. When I got to Richmond station and realised could not find the ticket, the guard refues to believe me even though I had the printed receipt and accused me of giving my ticket to someone else. He fined me £20 and did not even give me an option to purchase a single ticlet from Waterloo. I am furious at his attitude and lack of compassion and understanding. I wish I had read this article befre today as I would have known my rights and challenged him. All I can do now is appeal.

- Chris, Bracknell, UK, 20/04/2010 18:34
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I have just been fined £70 by Virgin Trains for getting on a 13:50 train instead of the 14:10 my ticket was valid for. What's the big difference? The train was only half full, I wasn't in anyone's way. It's a huge amount to charge and one I can't hope to be able to pay. I was met at the station by community support officers and was made to feel like a criminal for such a ridiculous thing. I want to appeal it - does anyone have any advice?

- Rebecca, London, UK, 01/03/2010 18:24
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My wife and I went from Coventry to Birmingham today on a Virgin train. The queues were very long at the station (about 10-15 min wait based on past experience). A train was due to leave in 3 mins and involved changing platforms. So we did what we have done only a few times before, bought a ticket on the train (I am a regular commuter with Virgin over the last 5 years and see people do this without issue all the time). However, the ticket inspector didnt appear leaving us at Birm without a ticket. We went to buy one and some jobsworth from London Midlands tried to make an issue out of it. Threatening us with a penalty fare, yet wouldnt do it so I asked him to leave us alone and let us get on with buying our tickets. He kept pointing out where it says (in Birm station) that a penalty fare would be issued. No such posters are in Cov station (we checked when we got back). I asked for his name as I said I was going to make a complaint against him. His badge just said Dave and he insisted thats all he had to identify himself as and refused to give me his name. Carried on with the threats but wouldnt do it. Saying if a police officer was there he would. So reading your article, suggest he was in breach on many steps of their rules. Cannot issue a penalty if not prepared to id himself for starters! Oh and civil nor criminal? Well police officers these days arent protecting anyone other than these companies!

- Chris, Coventry, 13/02/2010 23:14
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Thanks for this - great help.

I forgot to swipe getting on the train. This was during the snow period in Jan when all HAYS trains were cancelled. I gave up on the trains after the announcement, and had a coffee. 3 minutes after the ALL TRAINS CANCELLED announcement, a train turns up.


So I forgot to swipe my oyster. Got off at London Bridge and went straight to the window to ask to pay for my journey.

Paid my fare and they gave me the £20 penalty.

Wrote to appeal with my explanation, but has just been refused. I did pay my single fare so they can go shove it!


p.s. The last reason for sending a rush hour 4 carriage train istead of 8 was: Low Stock..... errrrr the train runs everyday, that the most ridiculous angering thing I am hearing on a regular basis these days!!!!! SE Trains are Shite!

- Jamie, Ladywell, 06/02/2010 15:49
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I am currently using this article to help me through the appeals procedure.
I will keep you all updated as to the progress of it, as it is completely unacceptable that we pay for their incompetence.

- Seb, Chertsey, 27/12/2009 14:59
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I'm a season ticket holder up to Croydon, zone 5 and recently I arrive at Victoria to buy a peak time travel card zone 1/6 so I can continue my journey on the underground to the project office for which I'm refunded.
At the ticket window before I can buy a travel card a revenue protection officer asks what I'm doing and when I tell him he then refuses to allow the woman to serve me and calls his colleague over, who then starts issuing a fixed penalty notice.
I give my name and address but refuse to pay a £20 fine as they are not working with in the DfT regulations 2002.
It becomes a circus when community support officers and police turn up and then I’m cautioned by the revenue protection officer and told the matter would be reported and go to court.

When all the fuss dies down, I say I still need a travel card to use the underground and with so many witnesses he reluctantly allows me to buy it from the same window we’ve stood at arguing for 30 minutes.

I’ve had correspondence with Southern prosecutions office and they intend to go to court in the New Year.

All of this clearly goes against the DfT regulations and train operating companies are determined to bully people out £20 as an easy revenue generator.
I've worked with railways for 28 years and it's the first time I've been treated like this

- Harry Ross, Horsham England, 09/12/2009 12:46
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I regularly use the london underground and have a prepaid oyster card with a auto top up. On the day in question, I touched in at monument and when exiting at upton park the barriers wouldnt open. I sought assistance with an uniformed officer, It turned out he was a ticket checker,His face lightened up as if striking a euromillion ticket.He called his fellow goons to make glee and humiliate me as a fare evader, all my explanation that the oyster has stopped working fell to deaf ears.They were quick as a lightning to issue me a penalty fare ticket and threatened me failure to pay up will result in criminal conviction. I was asking them as to how I can be held liable for a failed oyster card. I wanted to show them my journey history on my laptop but it would take 48 hours to update.I was left there as a laughing stock. I wrote to the appeals body about the high handedness and the whole story to appeal my penalty notice. Is been 21 days and i have still not heard from them!

- Joseph, wales, 02/12/2009 05:12
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My Daughter aged 12 has just starting making her own way to secondary school, she has an oyster card that entitles her to free bus travel, she was with friends and decided to travel the very short distance to school (One Stop) on the train instead of the bus. We are a family that occasionally travels on Public Transport and if we do I the parent buy the tickets. Therefore my daughter was unaware the oyster only entitled her to free bus travel but all travel. A ticket inspector got on and asked for her ticket, she showed him her oyster to which he explained she had to pay on trains. He then issued her a penalty notice. My Daughter has since recieved a letter stating pay up the £20 or face court procedings.
I refuse to pay this fine as it was an innocent mistake, and she has been disaplined for this by way of grounding her and she assures me she will never do this again.
This fine has escalated to £60 and i am worried that this can go further, I couldn't afford the original £20 so now really can't afford the currant fine. Anyone have any advice as to what I as the parent should do?

- Angela, West Wickham, 21/10/2009 09:58
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My daughter has recently received a letter from the SWT Prosecution Dept. Bsically the letter states that "all evidentce available is being consideres as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate". What options are open to her. As in many instances, there was a queue at the ticket office and her train was in the station. Unfortunately her record of paying two penalty fares a couple of years ago now appears to be working against her also..... The difference now, is that she had actually learnt the errors of her ways andthis is an entirely genuine occurrence...

- Swt Stitchup, Sunbury, 15/10/2009 19:02
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Train operators of course have a right to protect revenue against fare evasion. But they are now using penalty fares to increase revenue in defiance of the Govenment Penalty Fare policy: I have confirmation from Jim Morgan, First Capital Connect CEO. He uses 'bully boy teams' of ticket inspectors and thinks it fine to intimidate and lie to passengers in order to issue penalties in contravention of the Department of Transport Penalty Fares policy.

IPFAS is a joke. We need a full public debate about penalty fares before train operators get to put up the Penalty fare to £50.

I would like to talk to Andrew Gilligan further about this but cannot find an e-mail contact.

David

- David, cambridge, 02/10/2009 16:17
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Of course, you could just buy a ticket.

- Diplomat, Battersea

Of course, you could try reading the article

- Steve, london, 02/10/2009 15:17
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"I regret to inform you that I do not have a ticket. This is due to a payment failure at Charing Cross"

(from a Private Eye cartoon years ago)

- Mike, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Thanks for the information, It should really help me.

In my case I arrived at sydenham station 5mins before my train was due(off Peak), I had a anual zone 2-3 travel card & needed to buy an extention, there was 2 people in frount of me & before I could get the extention my train started to pull into the station (I queued about 3-4 mins).

I had an apointment to get to at croydon Registers office & if I missed this train I would have been too late, which would have ment booking another day of work.

I would have bought the extention at the ticket machines but they do not have the option to do this.

I was fully aware that East Croydon station had ticket barriers, they also have a "fares to pay" window, I got to croydon & was queueing at the window to pay when a revenue protection office offered to help.

I told him what happened & explained how important this interview was, He then told me that I would have to pay a fine (which I refused to do).

I showed him that I had about £100.00 in cash on me & a GOLD / Anerual ticket, Strangly he would not accept this as a resanable excuse even though he said he could see that I would have payed for the fare.

I Payed the cost of the full single fare, not an extention, nor did I have any gold discount.

P.S
I had ID with me going back atleast 2yrs, when he asked to see proff of address I just passed him the bag, He used a 2yrs old bank statement with a old address.

What could this mean?

- Mark F, Sydenham, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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There is no excuse to not buy a valid ticket from a london terminus before boarding your train. Buy a ticket or face the consequences.

- Anonymous, london, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Hey....I'm gonna try the same tactic in Tesco's when all the tills are busy. walk out with the trolley, just say in a bit of a rush will pop back later & pay when its a bit quieter!! Get real!, I think everybody is grown up enough to realise you need to to buy a ticket before you travel on a train.

- John, guildford UK, 02/10/2009 15:17
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With the highest fares in Europe and First Great Western today announcing a 20% rise in off peak fares next year, would it not surely be the Train Operating Companies that are the real crooks?

- Rory, Battersea, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Not sure the Tesco analogy below is strictly valid. I’ve never turned up at Tesco to find it unstaffed and that there is no food but I’ve certainly turned up at an unstaffed train station to find there are no trains. I don’t have to pay Tesco in advance for food that then doesn’t materialise but I’ve paid for train tickets for trains that don’t arrive.

Tesco certainly doesn’t shut most weekends for engineering work. Perhaps most importantly, when I leave Tesco after paying for my goods I’m not confronted by 10 members of security staff backed up by police who demand to see my receipt (which they justify by saying some people shoplift).

I think the point this article is making is that people who are genuinely trying to pay for the service are being penalised even for minor transgressions – let’s put it this way: if I got fed up after waiting for 10 minutes for a checkout at Tesco and decided to try and get 10 items through the 8 items or less checkout they wouldn’t hit me with a £20 penalty charge!

- Max, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Of course, you could just buy a ticket.

- Diplomat, Battersea, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Unfortuantly we live in a society of chancers. It is fine to board the train having queued up for several minutes,but who is going to queue at the other end to purchase a ticket? I used to work on a barriered station which sometimes had no revenue staff to issue tickets.However the ticket office was open. I would say only 1 in 100 persons actually went over to the ticket office and purchased a ticket for the journey they had taken.Having worked in this job, you get to trust nobody.Fare dodgers come in all shapes and sizes, and from all walks of life.

- Dave, south east england, 02/10/2009 15:17
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I work for HMCS, we are more than happy to facilitate fare non-payers, there is no excuse for not having a ticket, you can buy in advance from machines,stations and online.
By the way, from experience the worst fare evaders are business people in suits.

- Max, london, 02/10/2009 15:17
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I once travelled after having queued for more than 5 minutes at Waterloo (before they installed a lot more machines) with no luck. I paid the full single fare as I'd intended to anyway and then wrote to them and explained the situation and they did not charge me the penalty. I agree that the take-no-prisoners attitude is unsavoury to the small number of people who experience unnecessary difficulties in buying a ticket.

The entire penalty fares scheme is a disincentive to installing Oyster across the network-it's probably the main reason they've waited 5+ years to install it. Once that is in, there'll be very few instances where people cannot buy a ticket, so much less dodging.

And of course installing barriers would also be a sensible idea but that's expensive isn't it - so they would again just prefer to issue penalties.

I think Andrew Gilligan forgets that a lot of the time these ticket checks are made with British Transport Police in attendance. At the very least, the police presence ups the embarrassment factor. What to do in that situation?

- Philip, London UK, 02/10/2009 15:17
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I once caught the wrong train out of Vauxhall as the signs were down along the entire network (and no announcements were made upon the train). Although I did catch the Guildford train (manual announcements were made as to the destination) I caught the "via Surbiton" rather than the "via Epsom". On alighting at Surbiton (when I realised I was on the wrong train) I was collared by the ticketing thugs (who refused to give me their details) and told that it was my fault and promptly ticketed me. I wrote a letter to SWT explaining what had happened, they replied saying it was nothing to do with them but had forwarded my letter to the appeals committee, who promptly wrote back telling me that I was in the wrong and normally they wouldn't budge but in this instance they didn't have a leg to stand on as the penalty form had been filled out incorrectly.
The moral of the story is: make sure that the penalty form has been filled out correctly as unless it is it's not legally binding.

- Bob, Cheam, 02/10/2009 15:17
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I am an ex Conductor who worked in an area with few booking offices so all I required from people was either a ticket or the means to pay. I found the amount of attempts at free travel astounding. They came from ALL ages/walks of life and it was difficult to sort the genuine from the dishonest.

A few examples being.
Railcard holders (or perhaps not?) who purchase a ticket at for example 10:00 from a self service machine yet lose the card (but not the ticket) by 10:05. I'd see this at least once, usually more, every day. How do I work out who is lying/genuine?
2 Senior Railcard holders each with the year part of the date covered by a scrap of paper which when in a plastic wallet at first glance appear valid. On checking the date was last year. Genuinely forgot to renew? Perhaps -how could I tell? Should I treat them differently to 2 17yr olds in similar circumstances?

The time taken trying to decide who was lying meant many people on short journeys from unstaffed stations travelled free. I adopted a stance of requiring either A VALID ticket, means of payment or verifiable details. If neither of the three could be produced I would report them.. Perhaps some genuine people fell foul of this but in my opinion there is an element of personal responsibility rather like arriving at an airport ensuring your passport is a)In date and b)With you. While people do arrive at airports without passports I imagine the proportion is FAR less than rail travellers without tickets.

- Ex Conductor., Manchester, UK., 02/10/2009 15:17
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As a recent visitor to London, I recently came across the 'Penalty Fare Mafia' backed up by the British Transport Police when I arrived at Charing Cross after the short journey from London Bridge on South Eastern trains I tihnk it was.

As I tried to exit the barrier by 'touching out' my card, the 'seek assistance' light came on and the barrier declined to open. I was immediately pounced upon by the 'Mafia' who without letting me say a word joyfully pointed out that Oyster 'Pay as you go' cards were not valid on their trains.

Within milliseconds his pad flipped open, and name and address were demanded which I duly gave him (well it is a requirment). Whilst this was going on, despite me being on crutches I was almost frog marched off to a convenient area for them alongside a BTP officer (perhaps he thought I going to do a runner!!).

Anyway I let him complete the ticket thing and just as he was about to sign it, I politely informed him that I was not travelling on a PAYG Oyster but actually a Veterans Concessionary Travel Scheme Oyster card which was fully valid for my journey. I also pointed out it was not my fault their barriers had not been correctly programmed to accept the Veterans Card and surely he should have asked me what card or ticket I was using before he dived straight in with the Penalty notice (The BTP chap was nodding in full agreement with me).

So it seems to be never mind what the passenger is going to say, just issue the penalty.

Peter

- Peter, York, NorthYorkshire, 02/10/2009 15:17
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In my little corner of south London we rely heavily on Southern trains to get us into central London.

I always pay my fare but sympathise with those who do not – especially those who decide to jump on a train and pay at destination when confronted with a long wait for the ticket office. If the service was better I think train companies would have more justification for their ‘zero tolerance’ approach.

It is always frustrating to drag yourself off a dirty, delayed and overcrowded train to be confronted by aggressive ticket inspectors – especially, as is often the case at Battersea Park, if the ticket office itself is closed.

It’s also concerning that ticket inspectors are often backed up by British Transport Police – surly it’s not the job of the police to enforce a private company’s trivial debts? It wouldn’t be so bad if British Transport Police had a visible presence anywhere else on the network.

- Max, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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It's not always possible to buy a ticket, at my station the ticket office is hardly ever open - and the machine works when it wants to - and when the ticket office is open, the machine is usually on the blink again and you can queue for up to 20 minutes to buy a ticket. I had bought a ticket at my destination on a regular basis for 18 months, and a few months ago I was hit with a £20 fine for being unable to buy a ticket at the start of my journey (my train station does also not accept Oyster cards, we have readers but these have still not been connected due to an arguement between Southeastern trains and Tfl over the fare structure). I was told by the "Revenue Protection Officer" that I should buy myself a season ticket if I had problems buying a ticket every day - as I only work 3 days a week this would work out costing me more per week than the daily tickets - probably just what Southeastern want actually.

- Linzi, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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In Italy if you do not validate your ticket before boarding local or semi fast services, or when your ticket has no fixed date, you are liable for a 50 Euro fine. However, if you tell the train guard before he or she checks your ticket in all probability this fine will be waived. As far as I know penalty fares in Italy are just that and nothing more, there is no possibility of a criminal record. At any rate it would probably take a long time to get to court, and courts here have better things to do with their time.

- Mark, Venice, Italy, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Diplomat, Battersea; Dipstick, Battersea!

Do you actually understand the point of this article,
or do you work for one of the licensed bandit train
companies?

- Lb, Bromley, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Linzi, I'm in the same boat as you. You should be able to buy tickets in advance of travel - I get my three for the week all at once. If you go to the station in the afternoon there's usually less of a queue.

- Ian, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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It is worth remembering one point that Mr Gilligan seems to overlook.

If the ticket inspector doesn't believe you they do not have to charge a penalty fare even where penalty fares can be charged.

I am not saying that all cases fall foul of this, but it might be worth reading the Appeal Court judgement in a 1978 case in the name of Corbyn.

Where there are reasonable facilities to buy a ticket before getting on a train, you must use them otherwise you may be charged with fare evasion as Mr Corbyn found out to his cost.

By the way, I don't agree with the use of penalty fares as a revenue raising tool either.

- Pessimist, Cambridge UK, 02/10/2009 15:17
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The other issue is how random/repetitive these checks become. I've had journeys from London to Colchester (50 mins) with checks before boarding, two on board, then a fourth at the destination. It tries the patience severely.. Plus the "robocop" approach, with ticket checkers in quasi-military uniform, some with cameras on their helmets.. It's all intended to bully and increase tension. 5 mins queuing time? At Liverpool Street during rush hour, you can stand for 30-40 minutes...

- Steven Davidson, Colchester, England, 02/10/2009 15:17
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heres a story thats common.

you get to your local station, the trains just comming so you rush past either the ticket office or machine not wanting to miss the train. no conductor comes along and you get off at the stop you want, theres only a machine there, what do you do?
walk past or buy a ticket for the journey you have just made?

the answer is walk past, and as soon as you do then your liable for prosecution for making off without payment.

whats better a £20 penalty of face going to court?

for all those against penalty fares what about the honest people who buy annual season tickets or who will miss their train to buy a ticket. (SIMPLES) buy a ticket or take the chance with a penalty fare and stop moaning!!!

- Kirsty Mia, london, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Someone mentioned below that there is no excuse not to buy a ticket from a London terminus. This doesnt take into account a big problem. I (like most) have a travelcard and therefore when you travel from London it saves a lot of money to buy the ticket from the boundary of Zone 2/3/etc.

However, you cannot do this using the ticket machines so have to queue. London terminuses have MASSIVE queues (especially at rush hour) so I get on the train. If you travel Frist Cap Connect (which I unfortunately have to) I am now liable for a £20 fine, even though I will get off at a barriered machine and pay the single (which is extortionate anyway).

I pay £70 per week on travel - I could do without an extra £20 fine every time the tube gets me to the station late. This article should ensure that I wont have to pay those fines, and that is great news.

- Adam, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Congrats to Andrew if it were not for his article I would possibly have paid up my £130 fine for a ticket I had already bought to Chester proof of which I had at the time but dropped the seat number ticket....
so vicious collectors...
I even got a letter from Virgin back

- Victoria, London UK, 02/10/2009 15:17
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How interesting ! This is certainly informative - it is probably the most useful article the Evening Standard has published for a long time. Well done Mr Gilligan

- Rob, dorking, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Unfortunatly you would be suprised by the number of passengers who have no intention of buying a ticket.The issue is the very poor training given to inspectors especialy those on FCC.Be warned that the infomation is not all correct rail bylaw 18 makes it an offence not to have a ticket without having to prove intent,a penalty fare does not have to have the collectors name just number.Get two or three penalty's and it can be used in court to show intent.An Honest passenger and a properly trained inspector nobody should fear the system except those intent on abusing it.

- Lloyd, london, 02/10/2009 15:17
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We must stop theft by our own bureaucrats -- speed fines, penalty fares, parking tickets, bin fines, stealth taxes, even being accosted in Heathrow by fuel tax thieves... it is entirely immoral, repugnant, antisocial, and is inciting our youth into rebellious disrespect. It increasingly makes me feel violated -- like being mugged or assaulted. These people are vermin. We don't need newspaper articles to tell us how to get around the system, we need newspaper leadership to change the system and teach them a lesson they'll never forget.

- Whistleblower, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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Thanks for this information, I recently had a penalty charge & this will help me.

In my case I arrived at sydenham station 5mins before my train was due(off Peak), I had a anual zone 2-3 travel card & needed to buy an extention, there was 2 people in frount of me & before I could get the extention my train started to pull into the station (I queued about 3-4 mins).

I had an apointment to get to at croydon Registers office & if I missed this train I would have been too late, which would have ment booking another day of work.

I would have bought the extention at the ticket machines but they do not have the option to do this.

I was fully aware that East Croydon station had ticket barriers, they also have a "fares to pay" window, I got to croydon & was queueing at the window to pay when a revenue protection office offered to help.

I told him what happened & explained how important this interview was, He then told me that I would have to pay a fine (which I refused to do).

I showed him that I had about £100.00 in cash on me & a GOLD / Anerual ticket, Strangly he would not accept this as a resanable excuse even though he said he could see that I would have payed for the fare.

I Payed the cost of the full single fare, not an extention, plus without any gold discount, Further more I had ID with me going back atleast 2yrs, when he asked to see proff of address I just passed him the bag, He used a bank statment 2yrs old with a old address.

- Mark F, Sydenham, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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National Rail Conditions of carriage, Condition 2 states you must buy a ticket or other authority to travel BEFORE you travel, where you are given the opportunity to do so. To my mind, if you buy a ticket before you travel, as you're supposed to, when you reach your destination station you can leave promptly. If you don't buy a ticket before travelling then it's not unreasonable to expect a delay at the other end of your journey. Yes, trains are delayed, and dirty, but you still need to pay for the service you use. If you don't like the service, don't use it.Walk, cycle, get a taxi or bus. We have a choice. I'm fed up with my ticket prices being so high because I'm partly subsidising non payers.

- Jacky, London, 02/10/2009 15:17
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