Morning:
13°c
- Cameron: Pay up or you won’t stand in election
- Clegg: Police must not 'drag their feet' in charging MPs
- Grandee: I have not been asked for a penny
- Legg: Former Royal Marine with an independent streak
- Expenses: Former minister will not pay back a penny
- Chancellor: Alistair Darling to repay £554 in expenses
MPs today moved to rebuff demands for them to pay back thousands of pounds in expenses.
A crisis meeting of Labour MPs this morning saw Harriet Harman urge backbenchers to mount a concerted campaign to persuade auditor Sir Thomas Legg to back down.
But if that fails, senior parliamentarians will consider a “nuclear option” of putting his recommendations to a vote on the floor of the Commons later this year, where the entire package could be watered down or torn up.
Anger was running high, with accusations that Sir Thomas had breached natural justice by rewriting the rules and demanding repayments of expenses approved by officials up to five years ago.
“Something completely new has been introduced out of the blue,” protested former minister Ann Widdecombe. “Thomas Legg has actually rewritten the rules.
“Some things became invalid even though they were within the rules.”
Ms Widdecombe, whose expenses claims were among the lowest, said there was a “pretty big question mark over the legality of this”.
“If any other employer said ... we have now changed the rules so here's a bill', that employer would be up before a tribunal,” she added.
Liberal Democrat Norman Baker said MPs should “take the rough with the smooth” to restore public trust after the expenses scandals. But he said Sir Thomas must be making mistakes as he had been asked about a mortgage that did not exist. “I've never claimed for a mortgage,” he told the BBC “So it seems to me some of the information he's basing his statements on is completely inaccurate.”
The furious response came after Sir Thomas sent letters to around 600 MPs asking for repayments of money claimed since 2004/5. He decided that a limit of £1,000 a year should be put on claims for gardening at a second home and £2,000 for cleaning. In effect he tore up previous agreements where money was paid out without a ceiling on either category.
Labour MPs are furious with Gordon Brown, who announced the appointment of Sir Thomas last July.
One senior MP said Mr Brown's performance at a meeting with Labour MPs last night was “a car crash” and predicted that there would be moved to install leadership critic Barry Sheerman as chairman of the PLP.
Reader views (58)
If they have behaved this way over expenses. Their directorships and consultancies should be investigated next!
- W.L., London
So, these thieving crooks have the audacity to squeal that Legg has changed the rules and making them repay the money they have stolen from us! No, he hasn't changed the rules but has iterpreted them correctly and not allowed these dishonourable rats to make some most outrageous claims which were then allowed by the miserable and feeble boot lickers in the fees office.
However, even if the rules have been changed the MPs are only getting a taste of their own crooked medicine.
For that ridiculous Anne Widdicome to scream that Legg's requests may be illegal is laughable.
The whole rotten lot still don't get it do they!?
The gent, Blackheath.
- Andrew Kurowski, Blackheath, London
I’ll try this one again as it seems to be something that no one else has yet considered…
If a Labour appointed peer has been set the task of chasing down the offenders in this issue about benefits fraud, which party would benefit most if he went a little (a lot!) over-zealous and hit anyone and everyone with pay-back demands, no matter how small or picky? Sure, some NEED to be noticed, but I get the impression that many of the claims for payback are trivial and merely questionable at worst.
Its the timing of it all that catches my attention.
Consider – Labour have been hardest hit by the scandal, by a streak, but if ALL of the MPs can be tarred with the same brush, the blame being spread as widely as possible, it won’t look anywhere near as bad for them as it was (who looks at details & amounts when all they need is the label of 'fraud' to start yelling for heads?) - lets face it, much of politics is about impressions and swaying opinion.
I smell a rat. I certainly smell political machinations by GB and his dirty tricks crew.
- Rogan, Irving
WAIT TILL THEIR NEXT PAY REVIEW,THEN THEY WILL SHOW US MORTALS WHAT A PAY INCREASE IS ALL ABOUT THEY WILL END UP WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY BUT THEY WILL NOT HAVE TO PRODUCE RECEIPTS
- Anon, leicestershire
The matter that has been buried by the furore surrounding Legg's report is Brown's culpability. It is beyond belief that a man who has been Chancellor for ten years and Prime Minister for two did not know the expense system was being abused and I would venture that a blind eye was turned to this conduct in the interest of having compliant Labour backbenchers.
And, my goodness, how compliant they have been.
- Bingham Macnamara, lymington, hampshire
For goodness sake can't someone intelligent and on the spot there in the UK organise a HUGE Ralley with signs and banners and the lot and stand outside Her Majesty's abode and COMPLAIN. A real DEMONSTRATION against the Government and its corruption. Otherwise no-one will listen. Actions speak louder than words and there are too many words at the moment.
- Wq Ex Pat, Frankfurt am Main, Germany
If I get caught with my fingers in the till, I wonder whether the police will tip their hat and offer a sprightly, "Okay, sir," if I tell them my light-fingered escapades were nothing to worry about, so they can call off the dogs, forget all about it and focus instead on bringing down the full weight of the law on those 'real' people who do things like drop a piece of chewing gum on a pavement, or in error go one Tube stop further than their ticket allows...
- Paul H, London, UK
"Its our money now. Go away"
- Trunk, US
election now please ,lets get rid of these crooks .what is a crown minister doing trying to undermine what has being decided .a cynical ploy to make her look good when she shafts GB and goes for the leadership ?
over my dead body.
- Annoyed, london england
Why should we go out to vote at the next election.
- Shallotman, Basildon
We may need to make a few changes to get back on track.Firstly,if we take the Tories proposal of bringing back fox hunting,and replace it with politician hunting,im sure we will find a 99% support base.Secondly,if we replaced the poor salary of our beloved MPs with the minimum wage,and give our MPs salaries to those on minimum wage im sure our MPs would be much happier.Of course,we may need to give those recieving the MPs salaries a small expense account,as we all know one can not possible live on 64 000 per year.Hope these changes help solve the current dispute.
- Roy, London
Please please Your Majesty, help us and clear out this nest of vipers.
- David, Peterborough
And this mob are running the country - no wonder we are in such a mess. For the vast majority life is not fair - MPs shut up and pay up.
- Tony Gee, London
I can only assume the Head of State approves of our MPs thieving and the hatred that it has caused amongst the public.Perhaps the time has come to seek a new Head of State.
- Dave, london
They just do not get it do they! Our MP's are pretty average, and, that is probably being complimentary! The real question we should be asking is, are they worth their salary, and, perks? If we are to be honest the answer has to be no! We live in a free market, would our MP's be in a position, to replicate their remuneration packages outside of Parliament? I think not, as many are about to find out!
- Kevin Sullivan, LONDON
Services like cleaning and gardening are not essential to carry out parliamentary work. Do these thieving ******** not realise the bloody liberties they are taking?
Very very loose guidelines, described as 'rules', written by them for them to steal from the public purse.
- Frank, Home Counties, England.
Harriot Harmen is clearly making herself popular for the future leadership election. Is there nothing that woman won't do to get ahead? Brown would find a cobra snake less dangerous than her. So many MP's are on their way out that they will fight for whatever they can get so this nonsence is to be expected. They have no concern over how they appear to us 'little people'. If they force changes to the payments then this country will really have become a banana republic.
- Graham, England
What happened to the last PM and MPs not now sitting who were around during this inquisition period? Or, are they also pardoned?? Publish the complete lists and lets square it all off and then to the gang plank! How the hell can on vote for someone you can't trust; what has been, done tantamount to robbing your own children. Having worked in the DTI at one stage, these systems rely on intregrity of which clearly there is none. It's not the first time mistakes are made, after all we are human, but to consistently rob your kids. I can't agree with statements over "rule changes" the country is in a mess and broke and people still want to milk the system.
- Nigel Rush, Paris France
I hear you say wait until the next election and clear them out? Who is going to take their place? They know the British people are useless, moan and then get on with it. So I put it to you, who will take over when the clear out starts.
- Lee, middlesex
1) ".....accusations that Sir Thomas had breached natural justice by rewriting the rules"
It's MP's who "breached natural Justice" by claiming obscene amounts that any 'ordinary' person would have known were unacceptable
2) “If any other employer said ... we have now changed the rules so here's a bill', that employer would be up before a tribunal,”
In no other walk of life would the "employee" themselves(i.e. the MP's are "employed by" and paid by the public) decide the expenses rules. It would be for the employer to do so. In this case, the electorate (ie the paymaster) had NO SAY in what the so-called rules were.
The real problem here is that Gordon Brown is so discredited in his own party, and so desperate to hang on to power, that he simply can't force Labour MP's to do the right thing.
- Malcolm, London
Oh Harriet you are so wrong, people will not forgive or forget, so do yourself a favour and pay up.
- C Cusano, Bedford
There is one way to stop the people watching X-Factor; pull the plug on the way to burning Westminster......
Prorogue, not dissolve, now! Then organise an X-Factor for the best statesman in Britain. Or maybe, we should replace Mr Brown with Berlusconi?
- Wayne Barnes, London
If they refuse to pay up. Subtract it from their severance pay on standing down.
- George, Gosport
All animals are equal but some are more equal than others-Animal Farm
The Seven Commandments were designed to unite the animals together in a common cause against the humans and to prevent animals from following the humans' evil habits.
As the pigs were unable to remember all seven commandments it was decided that all seven commandments would be reduced to one, “All animals are equal”.
Napoleon(one of the main characters) and his pigs were corrupted by the absolute power they held over the farm. To maintain their popularity with the other animals, Squealer secretly painted additions to some commandments to make it benefit the pigs while keeping them free of accusation of breaking the laws. The laws are eventually completely removed, and replaced with "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
- Frank, Copenhagen, Denmark
Ive said it before and ill say it again, the queen should dissolve this wretched parliament, and anyone who has been found out to have purposely misfrauded the taxpayer should never be allowed to stand for office again.
- Kuldip, London, UK
They are trying to hold on to what cash they can because they know come the next general election they will be unemployed! Use the power of your vote to get these people out of office. It's the only way our unanimous voice will be heard and it will hit them where it hurts most.
- Jlo, London
Yet another well informed MP.I thought that the Prime Minister does have a "posh country mansion at the taxpayer's expense".Its called Chequers.Mr Brown probably makes cleaning claims on this as well as his third home in Scotland.Well done Sir Thomas for continuing to expose these MP's for what they are.Grasping,Greedy little parasites who could never hold down a job in the "real" world.Roll on the General Election!!
- Jasper Wainwright, Florida,USA
I will never vote again.
The time has come to clean up parliament once and for all and rid the stench of greed from MPs.
Only the electorate can decide their fates.
The Queen should dissolve parliament NOW.
- Steve, Bexhill
The moment is lost. This is a squall that will blow out. The only right and proper resolution to the Parliamentary expenses fraud was for the PM to call a general election immediately the extent of public outrage was clear - politically difficult for the government perhaps; but this is supposed to be a parliament of the people and I cannot remember any issue that has been more corrosive of public faith and belief in the political system, I do not believe that the Brown/Blair governments have any real faith in true democracy, they are only in it for power, glory and position. Since the summer, every response by party leaders to the expenses crisis has been politically driven with the next general election in mind, precious short on true wisdom; they are unable to say or do what they truly believe is right, they can only say what they think will give them political advantage - David Cameron has the best political antennae at the moment so he tends to get closer to the public mood but I get the impression that he doesn't really believe in his hard line, it is merely politically expedient.
- Crest, st peter port
MPs have lost the plot and have forgotten who employs them, who pays them and who they work for. Us the taxpayer and the voter. Those who claimed excessive expenses are morally bankrupt and should have acknowledged the spirit not the letter of the rules and return the cash as directed. Others should think themselves lucky that they do not face charges for frud .. or may be they will and quite rightly so if they claimed for non existant mortgages and homes that did not exist.
- Strongbow Sullivan, Paris,France.
The only way we can hope to see justice done is for all of us who have been victims of their theft and misappropriation of our money to seek legal aid and embark upon private prosecutions.
- R.F.York, Yorks, UK
Mark Myword, London -
You've hit the nail right on the head. If these people actually begin to feel the heat from the voters, they might (he wrote hopefully) begin to understand. The solution is ulimately in our hands.
The problem to be overcome is twofold:
i) Can a suficient number eligible to vote be persuaded that what occurs at the polling station on Election Day is actually more important than "The X Factor"?
ii) Can a sufficient number who do vote be persuaded to let go of lifelong party alleigances, particularly in the case of sitting MPs in "safe" seats.
It's a big ask, but all our complaints are effectively so much hot air. What counts (no pun intended!) is what we do on Election Day.
- John C, Leatherhead, UK
Her Majesty MUST dissolve parliament forthwith. None of them are fit for purpose.
- R.F.York, Yorks, UK
It really is a freak show, bodger brown, just for once, selects a man who does the job correctly. How many times did we hear the MP cry "its the rules" "the John Lewis list" now its all come home to roost oh its "unfair" never mind what they did to us the public who pay their wages, all those expensive toys they have to actually pay for, no money in the pocket to repay, all spent on extravagance because the gravy train never stops running, then shock horror derailed !! even jack boots jaqui with all her arrogance will have to pay her own bills, yes we know the word is alien jack boots it means write a cheque for what you buy, including your "adult" entertainment.
- Alan Davey, London Uk
Decency: this is not a NuLabour problem - this is a rotten to the core cross party Parliament...Not one of the parties at Conference said what they were going to do about expenses - Osborne said MPs would have their wages cut but presumably in the background they would be allowed to claim addition expenses!
- Andy, london
It when we have as tax payers to pay for Pornographic literature is totally unexceptable.
How dare they !!!
- Bernard Parke, GUILDFORD
I'm laughing. Why?
Just wandering how many of you middle class social climbers, who are whining now but actually brought the "nuvelle l'abor" pitch/concept and voted for them 3 terms on the trot?
- Decency, London, UK
Anyone who fights this and refuses to repay what an independent panel has found should be fired - ie forced to leave Parliament now (losing all rights to their golden farewell payments) and not be allowed to stand at the next election. They should (as anyone who has been overpaid benefits who refuses to repay) be prosecuted through the courts.
- Andy, london
So "his retrospective rulings are a breach of natural justice."
Would that be like the retrospective vehicle excise duty on environmentally unfriendly cars purchased in the past seven years.
Or the retrospective section 58 in the 2008 Finance Bill allowing for retrospective tax clawback?
Again, one rule for the rulers, one for the ruled. We need a revolution, Parliament is rotten to it's very core.
- Ted, London UK
Well they did get their snouts out of the trough long enough to start squealing.
I can't wait for the next election to excercise my nuclear option. If I see my MP for Bromley - who appears to have exploited his expenses to the full - is not playing ball he will not get my vote. Before he represents me on anything else I want evidence that the snouts are well & truly out of the trough.
I hope many others in the country will be behind me on this one.
- Mark Myword, London
"...retrospective rulings are a breach of natural justice and would cause both financial hardship and damage to reputations."
Well Mr & Mrs MP, had you done your job properly years ago and corrected the system many of you have said was at fault, this situation would never have arised.
Don't be cowards, throw the nuclear option, all resign now, publish your expenses in full to every one of your constituents and face them at the ballot box - if you loose, you pay back - if you win you don't... there's natural justice
- Chris, London
What a load of rubbish,its just a show for Joe public.These MPs are laughing all the way to the bank.Just look at the amounts stolen and the small amounts being paid back.I am sure they will all accept these fantastic terms with open arms.The whole investigation is a sham.
- Dave, london
Tony Blair Got Off HOME FREE !!!
A complete Angel!
- E. Nuff, London
This is a side show. Gordon is selling off assets again and he's selling in a buyers market again. The man doesn't seem to understand basic economic principles. Please get him out before he does any more damage.
- Alex C, London
Claiming the "Rules' is not a defense of the Law. If this is not cleared up by law than there is no justice in this land just a them and us situation one Law for you and a rule for me. Which side do you want to be on ? TAXPAYERS MONEY WAS NOT MEANT TO MAKE POLITICIANS RICH !!!
- A Tax Slave, london
Here we go again! Eighty two days holiday - er sorry, working in their constituencies and engaging in "fact finding trips" - and they're back squealing like pigs. In spite of all that has gone before, many obviously still do not get it. So much for "re-connecting with the voters"!
Bring on this division! The voting records will make interesting reading in the run up to the election which really cannot come to soon. This Parliament is totally discredited
- John C, Leatherhead, UK
Ask the Queen to dissolve Government now?
- Tojo, Hythe, Kent
When there exists this level of corruption at the provincial level in a federal state, it's time for the central government to step in. Brussels, where are you? Oh, I forgot, your level of corruption is even worse!
- Phil Jones, London UK
Isn't it annoying when retrospective rules are brought in; you think you've complied with everything only for the goalposts to be moved. Pity our MPs didn't feel the same way with the numerous retrospective HMRC changes that they voted in over the last few years, which brought pain to individuals and small businesses alike.
- Nick, Essex
MPS angry? it's a disgrace.
- Fodil, LONDON
If the Legg "demands" are a breach of the rules of natural justice, then let there be justice. Let the MP's go before a Judge who will not be the subject of political direction or influence.
If the MP's in question are found to owe that money by a Court of law, then I would have absolutely no sympathyfor the excuse that the MP would suffer hardship - on their salaries! If I owe the taxman money, it doesn't take him too long to demand penalties and interest. Why should these MPs get preferential treatment, or are they above the law? If you owe it, cough up or get out of Parliament. You're no good to us or anyone else for that matter.
These people continue to bring the country into disrepute and they must go.
- Captain Black Of The Mysterons, London, England
Watch the piggies squeal-the great thing is that this will now provide a nice clear list of names of squealers so people know who never to reelect."Natural justice"pffffff!
- Amoreno, luxembourg
These MPs had better understand that the public have a right to 'go nuclear' too when they see that Parliament no longer represents them.
- Oliver Cromwell, London
Never mind about the pittance claims for "gardening" and "household cleaning" - what about the MILLIONS OF POUNDS MP's fraudulently claimed on their second homes' allowance and the countless cases of "flipping" their homes to garner a portfolio of expensive properties at taxpayer's expense?
Never, in the history of mankind, has the UK witnessed so many discredited, snivelling, devious useless MP's as are currently laughing their socks off at Joe Public.
- Reuben Camara, Morecambe Compound, EUSSR
MPs are now really showing their true colours. These are the same hypocrites demanding that the likes of Fred Goodwin and the city bankers repay a chunk of their legally gained booty yet they themselves are totally unprepared to repay what they have STOLEN from the tax paying public. They are morally corrupt and not fit to govern.
- Goggs, London
Good! .. and we will vote out those same MP's!!!
Will they then get it!
- Joe, Thornton Heath, London, England.
"But behind the scenes MPs were looking at a range of options to stop the Legg recommendations being implemented in full"
WHAT! This is an absolute outrage!
This despicable,petulant and arrogant behaviour clearly shows that our shamless,greedy pig MPs still believe they've done nothing wrong and do not have to pay back OUR (Taxpayer) money which they FRAUDULENTLY claimed.
They should be thanking their lucky stars they're not in the dock being prosecuted for Fraud and Theft (although anything less than full Police/CPS investigations into the more serious expenses frauds will be an utter afront to justice and total disgrace).
The whole of this rotten,stinking,corrupt sham of a banana-republic Government needs to be cleaned out completely and we need to implement an INDEPENDENT expenses body made up of accountants,police officers and members of the public. That is the only way we can prevent this sickening corruption.
- Anon Pc, London, UK
And this is news? We all knew that they'd find some way of keeping their grubby little mits on the cash. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't give themselves a little extra bung for all the stress they've been put through. It's only fair.
- Threaded, Roskilde, Denmark
