• Bankers: We're worth every penny
• Commentary: City must learn it costs nothing to say sorry
• Bonuses: Banks fail to reform as public 'pay for a generation'
• ES Comment: Governor and banks too big to fail

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Mick in London - so you don't consider working long hours for a Bank to be hard graft? It's just a different type of work and everyone in work contributes to the prosperity of society. Like all problems, the current financial situation has many reasons for it's existence, not just large bonuses for a very small elite. No, your comments are not in vein, maybe in vain though. I look forward to your latest musings on societies ills and how we can fix them...

- Paul, Chatham, UK

It is a flagrant lie to claim that 'Britain will lose business and opportunity' if efforts are coordinated between the US and Europe, in what financial institution are permitted to do and the regulatory framework in which they operate.

The discussion on Channel 4 news last night involving Larry McDonald, a former Lehmans VP and Patrick Jenkins, the Banking Editor of the FT concerning the brouhaha between Mervyn King and Gordon Brown touched upon the crux of the issue which is global systemic failure due to poor management of risk.

Whatever happens, financial institutions cannot be permitted to assume such levels of risk aagain on the premis that the tax payer will bail them out if they get it wrong. If that principle is accepted, then lower reward follows as a matter of course, and regardless of what Griffiths and Co may say, that it something bankers will have to get used to

- John, Twickenham

Banks are owned by a few select elite who have manipulated the system for hundreds of years to rob Countries and the individual alike via lending money,that actually does not exist and then charging interest.To service this debt we need to borrow more and the cycle continues..we work for the Banks. The only solution id to Nationalise the Banks, sieze all their Corperate and Private assests and kick them out of the Country. The end is when they own everything and everyone...thats the endgame.

- Clif, London

Not in real world, is he? Perhaps he'd like to swop places with me, once I turn 60 which will be on the last day of this month, when my income from pensions and a small amount of investments will be in the region of £9000pa. Puts bankers huge bonuses into perspective, doesn't it?

- Judith, KIng's Lynn, Norfolk, UK

Thank you Paul of Chatham; it pleases me to know you await my daily comments.

I have nothing personal against Banks; I just don't like being forced to subsidise them.

I have lived my long life without Banks, and I can manage the rest of my life without them at all.

OK; I understand many of you can't live within your means, and need to borrow more than you actually earn, much of it from those savers now being robbed of their interest rates etc.

My idea of Capitalism; is the man that goes out to do an honest days hard graft, for his honest days pay, then invests his own hard earned money in his own enterprise etc.

Likewise; I consider the Stock Exchange as a rich mans betting shop, where brokers gamble with other peoples money, and not their own money, this is not hard honest graft, for an honest days pay, at all.

As you already know what I prefer in my life; then I need not mention my love of freedom, democracy, free speech, and the rule of law etc.

Keep looking in Paul, and thanks for reading my comments, it is nice to know my efforts are not in vein..........Mick.

- Mickinlondon, london

@ James, City of London

"The employee should be responsible for his bonus achievement and if it fails later because it was inherently poor then the bonus, which should be held in trust for 3 years, is not given"

the problem with this logic, is that it has ALREADY been proven not to work. Lehman Brothers were largely owned by the employees because they paid bonuses in shares, that *did* vest over a number of years.

I repeat Lehman Brothers with held bonuses for years, and were often then only paid in common stock.

the real problem is that the man on the street knows nothing about the subject matter, and has been mislead and misinformed by the politicians seeking to avoid blame, and the media reporting it because bad people to blame sell papers.

- Scotty, London

*** Good Riddance To The Lot of Them ***

Here are some of the benefits I'm looking forward to receiving once those poor overtaxed City boys have gone:
1. A property of a decent standard in a good area that I can actually afford on a normal salary.
2. Vacancies at a good school which will at last have places for my children when the spoilt brats of the rich are safely in foreign boarding schools.
3. Never having to endure again the snotty arrogant wives of the rich who look down their noses at anyone not able to swan around London in a brand-new vehicle the size of a tank.
4. Never being lectured again on how much the City contributes to London/the economy/Britain, because nobody will notice they've gone.
5. Never having to worry what the City is doing and what financial disasters they are cooking up in order to get their bonuses, that me and my children will end up having to pay for.

- Kate, London

"Other than the oil industry there's not to many other businesses, which put this kind of cash into the UK tax system year on year.
- Mark, South-East London"

...And no other industry takes this kind of cash out of the tax system either. It used to be said that the City supported the economy, whereas now it's the economy supporting the City.

As for all the screaming from the "tax us and we're off" brigade, I'm still waiting to see the gridlock caused by all those Bentleys and Ferraris heading to the airport on their way to their tax-free paradise in any other country stupid enough to put up with them and all their antics.

- Kate, London

How does being angry about unearned bonuses make me a socialist?? Please.
I am a total supporter of bonuses as an incentive to excellence.
However, look at the value of your pension funds and endowments and highlight for me the "excellence" in the City.
It is populated by a bunch of overpaid, inefficient bankers. They are useless at their jobs yet get huge bonuses - how can that be right?
When my pension fund is worth as much as it was ten years ago AND my endowments deliver even 100% of what I was promised (at the moment I am told to expect c50%) I'll be the first to say they deserve a bonus.
Till then why should they?

- Jim, London, UK.

"We have to accept that inequality is a way of achieving greater opportunity and prosperity for all" Welllll, yeah, its ONE way. But its a way neither myself nor millions of others are prepared to agree as being fair, just or socially acceptable. Ironic, isn't it, that he made this statement in a house of God; what happened to the money lenders in the parable?

- Richard, London UK

A 90% rate of income tax needs to be applied to any payment made by way of a bonus to an employee of any finacial institution who is in receipt of a salary in excess of £35k. That should take the smile off the faces of such greedy swine of the likes of Lord Giffiths who have no conception whatsoever of the public rage at their resistance to normal standards of business behaviour. They need to respect clients money not play with it as if were monopoly money. Two centuries ago the givers and receipients of such unearned sums would have been hanged at Tyburn or otherwise languished in a dungeon for perpetrating theft of shareholders and clients cash on such a grand scale

- John, Leighton Buzzard, Beds

Lord Griffiths is talking absolute garbage! Why are we rewarding this so called talent for vitually bankrupting or country? His comment "We have to accept that inequality is a way of achieving greater opportunity and prosperity for all" is complete rubbish. All these overpaid buffoons will do is spend vast amounts of money on imported goods which will not benefit this country at all. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It's all about greed, pure and simple!

He is just trying to absolve is already overstretched conscience. What a mumpty!

- Bleeding Heart Liberal, London

Advisor to Margaret Thatcher , day's it all.

- Christine, Hamilton Canada

Good luck to them its just a shame the banks didn't let there customers have a bit less interest to pay on overdrafts etc.

- Richard Edmunds, Rayleigh UK

Mark, South East London is quite right - you can pay it out as bonus here and tax it here at a higher rate 50% plus NI or you can swizz it out through shareholder divis and pay Capital Gains Tax at only 35% and no NI, whilst the comments made are very distasteful if you want to keep the best staff you have to pay the MARKET rate despite whether you feel agrieved at the salary levels

- Wallytrader, London

Let them go abroad. Then we don't have to pay them unemployment benefit. But leave OUR money behind! Go Bankers, Go! The sooner the better GO, GO, GO abroad!

- Lloyd, Barnet

James, City of London, you seem to have a lot of spare time as this is the second article I've read today that you have posted comment on. I wish I could say I am surprised.
I am a firm believer in bonus payments but tell me - if I (and millions like me) get a bonus of less than 2% on my endowment or pension, why do City Slackers get bonuses of 100% and more?? How is that fair?
If you do your job well, you deserve a bonus. No question.
But if your customers are benefiting from your expertise to the tune of 1.3% how, on Earth, are you doing your job well? I'd say you were doing your job very badly.
Dismissal, rather than bonus, would be a more apt reward.

- Jim, London, UK.

Mick in London, I love waiting for your daily comments. Very constructive... If these 'parasites' leave the country, a large proportion of tax revenue will be lost when they take their businesses with them. Don't forget a large proportion of the country borrowed beyond their means and this also contributed to our financial woes. I think the enormous debt we have is due largely to the tax and spend philosophy of the Government, not the Banks. Agreed RBS was bailed out, amongst others, by the taxpayer but this is a drop in the ocean to the money wasted by this Government. Please stop blaming the Banks for all the worlds ills and also remember that Banks are private companies and are there for profit, not for public service. Those not under the Government umbrella are quite within their rights to reward their staff as they see fit. Or would you prefer regulation in absolutely every aspect of our lives? Communism? Dictatorship maybe? I know what I prefer...

- Paul, Chatham, UK

Well thts ok if they can have big bonuses less than a year after all the chaos kicked off, then you cant blame low paid public sector workers for asking for hefty pay rises can you.

- Brian, Wiltshire

Quote: The Conservative peer, a former adviser to Margaret Thatcher, also warned the Government that attempts to rein in bonuses will only result in banks leaving the City and causing huge damage to the British economy.

If they were not in the City of London in the first place; the taxpayer would be far better off today, than they are now?

Feel free to go; Lord Griffiths, The UK can't afford you, and your kind.

As a former advisor to Margaret Thatcher; you sold off most of our Nations Assets, as well as depleting North Sea Oil Revenue for Tax Cuts, and now you have put the UK into debt for the next 20 years due to your bad business deals; so go now Lord Griffiths; you are no asset to anyone but yourself, and your own greedy kind.

- Mickinlondon, london

@ James, City of London

Very nice and all but, it is the very fact that people are bonus chasing and not doing their jobs with the appropriate amount of professionalism that has led to the collapse of your financial system.

Perhaps you can tell me how people lost/had to hand back their bonus as a result of the collapse of your banking system? I am pretty sure I know the answer to that one.

- Frank, Home Counties, England.

Don't you think it would be fairer if the money went back to the taxpayers for the loan they borrowed??

Another thing they ought to try and live off the minimum wage like many people earn.

It just GREED, they deserve it my 'bottom'

- C Cusano, Bedford

Let me ask m'lord a question - do you actually need all this money, or is it just pure greed?
We all have a limited time on earth, we don't need enough money to last a thousand years.

- Ray, Sydney

Mark of London. You got it spot on.

The ignorance of most of the people contributing to this debate is astonishing and blinded by envy or some other.

Whether we like it or not, without private enterprise (be it business, banking, or whatever)there is no-one generating the profits and business activity that contributes to tax coffers. Communism doesnt work - Russia proved that, it could barely feed its people through most of the 20th Century. Capitalism, with all its faults is the only proven system - complete with the inequality it brings. Lord Griffiths shouldnt be criticised for pointing this obvious fact out.

- Paddy, Belfast

Take away the bonuses and the bankers will take themselves somewhere else to make thier money and London and England will be the losers. The quicker the banks make big profits the quicker they can pay back the loans and the quicker England can get back on top.Also the Labour party need to keep thier noses out and let decent politicions run England again ie the Conservatives.

- El Del, Valencia Spain

@ 123

My figures do stack up and they demonstrate that paying bonuses as opposed to not paying bonuses does benefit the UK. My example was loosely based on the apparent Lehmans scenario; one bank out of how many? All those odd billions start to add up and they'll be much next year.

I am not interested in the morals of what has or will happen I just want to ensure that I or my family don't have to dig further into our pockets. If the bankers go this country will be further up the creek than it already is.

By all means take the moral high ground I'm sure you'll enjoy paying 20% VAT and a basic rate of income tax of between 25 and 30%, I'm just dealing in practicalities.

- Mark, South-East London

If the organisation is performing well haven't got a problem with bonus being paid. However, it's a tad unfair when times are hard for a lot of folk losing their jobs.

How about paying half to the employee and the other half to a charity working within and for the UK!

- Sanjay, Hounslow, UK

After reading the comments, I think UK is turning into a socialist country. Nurses being paid less than bankers, public servants earning less than bankers, SOON ROYAL MAIL WORKERS WILL SRTIKE AGAIN ON THE BASIS THAT THEY ARE PAID LESS THAN BANKERS...... Is this just lack of understanding about economics or are these people just bitter, jealous and negative. I think this country needs an attitude change. Be happy, you are in a country that gives you free health, realtively good transport system and safety. If the attitude of THE BANKERS AND US doesn't change, I agree that the developing countries and the Far east will excel than us. The reccession wasn't just brought upon by the bankers alone, they were selling a product that people wanted to buy. Nobody can force us to go into debt!!!

PS I'm not a banker and have nothing to do with banking.

- S, surrey

We should listen to the governor of the Bank of England. "Too big to fail" banks must be split up. The everyday banking businesses which cannot be allowed to fail for the good of the economy, must be fully divorced from the high-risk high-pay "casino" operations.

That done, pay and bonuses could look after themselves. When these people get themselves into their next big hole, their organisation could be left to go bankrupt. Pay and bonuses will then (and only then) rightly revert to being a matter for the bank's owners (shareholders) to decide.

The irony of it all, is that the whole mess was created in no small part by the abolition (in the USA) of the Glass-Seagall act, which enforced separation of retail and merchant banking, and which was passed in the aftermath of the 1929 crash. Those who forgot the lessons of history, are indeed being obliged to re-live that history.

In the meantime, one reason that the government may be reluctant to curb huge bonuses is that 40% (rising this year to 50%) of these huge sums is claimed as tax, and the government needs the money! This is really just another stealth tax. All of us are paying, because these bonuses are paid out of interest that we aren't being paid on our savings, or higher interest charged on our borrowings.

- Nigel, London

I think all agree we love to have a bonus when our company or ourselves are doing well and achieving a nice decent profit. ..but it’s a recession and most can just manage to pay our bills on time!
Grand standing on the threat to ‘pull operations elsewhere’, is exactly what I expect of a ‘Conservative peer’ and he make us all feel very secure & happy with this line..."We have to accept that inequality is a way of achieving greater opportunity and prosperity for all."
I wonder what David Cameron has to say...

- Jackie, London

"We have to accept that inequality is a way of achieving greater opportunity and prosperity for all."

This is a comment from the same fool employed by the Football Association who decided that Carlos Tevez was indubitably worth 3 points to West Ham.

Financial inequality is caused by the haves having more and the have nots having less, and not in spite of it

Investment banking profits burgeon because they can access a monopoly of resources from retail banking for a derisory rate of return to depositors. In short, they access cheap money not available to any other industry. The risks asssociated with that would, one might have hoped, been well documented last year to make such a practice untenable going forward.

However, the likes of Griffiths still exist to pander to the good old days, perhaps he might like to remind everyone just how many jobs were lost as a direct result of the collapse of the investment banking model in 2008, and how many jobs were lost because investment banks such as his, took taxpayers money for themselves and their own gain, rather than lend to perfectly sound businesses that relied on the credit markets for day to day funding ?

- John, Twickenham

That is all well and good,James,City of London,and thank you for that.But the problem seems not to be the actual bonus,but who receives them and the amount.Maybe a good example of this would be the nurses who looked after my elderly dieing mother several yrs ago,who went the extra mile to make her last days comfortable,as i watched these fine people go about there business it was apparent that they where all giving 110% of themselves to a cause that is second to nothing in importance,and doing it in a humble and professional manner,with no fan fare no razmataz,no celebration,no back slapping etc.now contrast that with the pompous arrogant back slapping approach we so often whiteness from city employees,the utter damage they inflicted on Joe public this year through miss management and down right greed,and then accepting tax payers money to bale them out.The wine bars are still full in the city,and millions are still paid out in bonuses,but not to the nurses as one might expect or the road sweepers,or the teachers etc etc,but to the City boys,something is wrong some where and that you cant deny!

- Kev, London-UK

let them go, and take their credit default swaps with them.
We need to ween ourselves off from phoney finance and their false dawns.
They have brought the country to its knees and crippled public services for a generation.
Let them go.

- Darren, london

@ Mark, South-East London.

Nice idea to try and justify all of this on the basis of cold hard facts, but I'm afraid your numbers just don't stack up. In your first scenario you have £3bn tax take plus the intangible value of a banking system not incentivised to take excessive risks. In your second scenario, you have a tax take that is £4.85bn minus the cost of a bonus culture which encourages reckless risk-taking. I think it's now fairly obvious that it would take quite a few years of £1.85bn extra tax to even come close to the cost of dealing with the mess that reckless risk-taking has caused. On balance I think yoy will find that casino-banking has cost the UK far more than it has ever contributed, and that therefore an exodus of bankers to foreign climes would be no loss at all to the UK.

- 123, London

Good Things for Britain
1. Supertax for the Super-rich
2. Regulation and taxation of the shadow economy
3. End to Politicians being paid by the Oligarchy
If they say:"We'll leave", take their passports and tax them as they go.

- Roboscourge, Hammersmith

Mark - "Quick test for those who are outraged by the bonuses" - seems to have forgotten how much taxpayers money has been spent supporting the banks.

According to a recent study (Centre for Research of Socio-Cultural Change at Manchester University), the IMF reckons that this number is somewhere between £289bn and £1trillion, compared to the estimated £203bn the sector paid in taxes in the 5 years prior to the crash.

It's true that the value of the financial sector to the economy goes beyond just the amount it pays in taxes, but even if you include all those paid in clearing banking, they amount to no more than 6.5% of the workforce.

On this basis, I think we can safely let these people take their chances abroad without worrying too much about the net effect on the rest of us.

- Bill, London

As somebody who knows about these things I would like to add a comment or two about the 'Bonus'.

A bonus is not to be paid for doing your job description, ie doing what you are already paid for, regardless of how well you do it.

A bonus is an additional and exceptional payment, ie it is not a yearly rite, for things that you do to benefit your employer that are above and beyond the job description and your employers expectations and is given out of gratitude. The employees additional benefit is to at the achievement to their CV to make them more employable at a highly yearly rate negotiated with the current or future employers.

A bonus is not a percentage of your employers profits, that belongs to the shareholders and the partners

A bonus arrives by cheque or other benefit, at a presentation, employees see this and are enthused to do better. A Bonus does not arrive as part of the pay cheque system because this encourages entitlement thinking

Importantly a bonus is given for a long-term benefit to the business or organisation; it is never a reward for a quick fix to make that balance sheet look good for that financial year.

The employee should be responsible for his bonus achievement and if it fails later because it was inherently poor then the bonus, which should be held in trust for 3 years, is not given

A bonus must be measured in tangible business benefit. All people that meet the tangible benefit criteria beyond their job description get a bonus

- James, City of London

This idiot needs to understand the only response from 80% of the population,ie,the average working man and woman is,Bye,and dont come back you greedy rich boy.We are sick of this rubbish,that unless we allow you to take the wealth of the country for yourselves,you will leave.If it were not for the working men and woman who slave away daily,how much money do you think your companies would make.Without us,you are nothing,so grow up with this hogwash that it is only through the grace of you,that the companies make money.

- Dave, london

Pure blackmail isn't it? This slimy individual just sums up what's wrong with the banks.

Incidentally, was it the Labour Government that gave him his peerage?

- Dave Markham, London, UK

Please, Lord Griffiths, go. Leave the country, along with every other spiv in the City who have brought Britian to its knees through your greed and stupidity.

Not sure where you'll go, however. Germany? You'll pay higher taxes there? The US? YOu're even less popular than here? Dubai? A basket case in the desert? Or the far east? Sure, HOng Kong has a big gambling industry, but you'll not find many jobs there at the moment (you casued a global recession, remember).

No-one is arguing for absolute equality, but study after study shows that more equal societies than ours - the Scandinavians spring to mind - are more successful and also happier than us.

Greed, short-termism and the narrowest definition of success purely based on tomorrow's share price have led us to the edge of the abyss. Now it is time for you to pay us back.

- Rob, London, UK

Quick test for those who are outraged by the bonuses.

One Bank has £ 10B, they can either retain it or pay it out as bonus; what is the best position for the economy?

A. Retain it as profits. Bank pays 30% corporation tax on some or none (if they have losses brought forward). Pot tax yield £3B, with the remaining 70% available to pay as a dividend to shareholders. In most cases this is the overseas parent.

B. Pay as bonus. Immediately around £4.85B is paid to HM Gov. (rising to around £6B next year). The vast majority balance of the money is likely to remain in and be spent in the UK.

Those who like paying more tax keep on moaning about these massive bonuses. Other than the oil industry there's not to many other businesses, which put this kind of cash into the UK tax system year on year.

- Mark, South-East London

"He added that it would be next to impossible for regulators to distinguish between banks taking excessive risks or simply responding to market conditions"

of course someone who knows what he is talking about, would highlight this. its only the political obfuscations of mervyn king that want to sweep this little inconvenience under the carpet.

- Scotty, London

In recent years, the bankers have been the tail wagging the dog. Now the tail is bigger than the dog. After 20 years of living in London, I have still to see any extra prosperity bought to ordinary Londoners by the expansion of the 'City' and its attendant pay and bonuses which has pushed the price of housing out of reach of anyone not recieving these ill gotten gains. The money that the 'City' says it pays the goverment in tax is in fact money that should not have been channeled into the tax coffers via that conduit but in fact should have come from a more effective across the board economy involving far more of the population. Its time the 'City' was put back in its place as a simple utility for the facilitation of finance and sensible investment, not a big casino benefiting a hand full of spivs.

- Steve, London UK

The sooner these overpaid parasites leave the country the better. Good riddance. These people make nothing and generate no wealth for the country, on the contrary they saddled the country with massive debt when we bailed them out.

- Mick, London, England

"We have to accept that inequality is a way of achieving greater opportunity and prosperity for all."

Reminiscent of the “let them eat cake” statement.... and we know what happened there..!

- Ade, London

The arrogance of the man is breathtaking. Many people have been thrown out of work because of the recession, in which the banks played a major part. Many people in the public sector are on tiny salaries by comparison. Large numbers of people don't get any bonuses at all, let alone ones of this size. They just don't get it, do they? The Archbishop of Canterbury should think very carefully about whether Lord Griffiths is a fit person to chair his panel.

The banking problem began with Mrs Thatcher. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that her people are still involved. And as for the claim that banks will go abroad, isn't that a form of bribery???

- David, Ealing, UK

Let them all bugger off then - they have caused a world-wide cock-up and now they think they are worth a bonus earned with our money.

- Fred, London

"Bonuses are good for Britain"

Umm ... you'll be sharing your billion bonuses out with everybody then?

".. banks leaving the City and causing huge damage to the British economy."

Umm ... so Britain is not a trillion in debt because of the banks then?

- Frank, Home Counties, England.

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