Tonight:
-3°c
THE first new trains on the London Underground for a decade are causing misery for passengers on one of its busiest lines.
Two major morning rush-hour shutdowns of the Victoria line in a week were caused by new trains being introduced as part of £900 million upgrade, the Standard can reveal.
The line was suspended for about an hour yesterday when one of the new trains broke down at Oxford Circus, and last Wednesday ambulances had to be called to Pimlico station when 3,000 travellers were trapped inside “furnace-like” carriages when a northbound train broke down.
Transport for London has now admitted both problems were caused by the new trains, which have proved 23 times less reliable than the 43-year-old trains they are replacing.
Problems have been caused by computer software failures and from over-sensitive door sensors, which apply the brakes when passengers lean against the doors. A TfL spokeswoman said: “There have been some technical issues with the new trains but we are working hard to rectify these faults.
“Once the upgrade is finished in 2012 the new track and signalling will mean faster, smoother and more reliable journeys for our customers.”
When the new trains were first introduced during the evening last summer, Tube boss Richard Parry said they were “wonderful” and had undergone “hundreds of hours of testing”. However, passengers have complained about the chaos on the line, which closed early for months last year to allow upgrades.
Many have used Twitter to air their grievances, with one passenger saying it had taken 90 minutes to travel from Walthamstow to Euston yesterday. Another, Nadine Stewart, wrote: “Dear TfL, do me a favour & remove the new Victoria line trains from service will ya? If all they're gonna do is break down, I DON'T WANT 'EM!”
Reader views (34)
I am a Train Operator on the Victoria Line I can assure all our Customers we have been trying our best to make the most of these hap hazard trains. When a car prototype is made no company would go into mass production till the plans and glitches had been ironed out these Trains are arriving and have to be modified before they go into service also look at the heat of these trains they are much hotter than the old ones as a result of poor design.
- Paul, Stockwell, 30/07/2010 19:50
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Christina, Plymouth
I can assure you Train Operators were involved in the development of the 09 Stock; as were Union reps from both relevant unions. The first two trains were never originally intended to go into service but were intended as purely test trains. Tfl I'm sure realised they could use them in service to provide further information to help optimise the final build. They have returned to Bombardier to be refitted with the final desk and then will return to service.
There will always be trouble with training folks on new equipment, especially when they work shifts and the training has to be fitted around their job. There are simulators for training but again, time is limited and training has to be optimised around shift patterns. There is also the issue of having drivers trained and driving two stocks at once; this opens up potential for confusion between the 2 stocks.
As to destroying track, a) you're not going to make running rails out of aluminium; it's just not strong enough. It may be used for the conductor rails but not the running rails. b) the old trains have ancient worn out suspension and the wheels become damaged by the poor track and vice versa. Relaying track and sending trains to the wheel lathe partly improves matters, but you can only send so many trains to the lathe at any one time and you can't relay the track that often. The new trains will have better quality suspension, new wheels and when new track is laid, will provide a smoother ride.
- Bob, Manchester, 30/07/2010 18:20
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Bob, Manchester
Don't know where you get your information as regards the drivers on the Victoria Line but I can assure you that they were not consulted about the 09 stock. my best friend is not only a driver but a union rep on this line and they only saw the trains when the first 2 were delivered, at which time those 2 trains had to be sent back to the manufacturer to have the cabs modified from the original build.Nearly half the drivers have not even been on these trains or received the training on the new stock either. Many that have been trained then may not encounter one of the trains until months after their training, and then rarely, so they have little or no hands on experience, let alone know how to deal with any problems that arise.
As to your comment about the old stock destroying the track. The 09 stock is far heavier than the old stock, so can't see how that happens. The rails are having to replaced in aluminium instead of steel to deal with the extra weight but that will not be finished until 2012.
I agree that people should be patient, new technology always has teething problems but TFL really should look at the way they reach their decisions, and may be follow your advice and consult drivers and passengers before they spend so much money next time.
- christina, Plymouth, UK, 30/07/2010 07:53
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Yes, they are called 'Train Operators' and not drivers. I'm quite sure drivers and Union reps have been heavily involved in the development. They wouldn't have it any other way. The trains don't have air con for the passengers as there's physically not enough space on the train to fit the kit. So unless you want tfl to close down the Vic line while they bore out the tunnel, I suggest you keep your comments to yourself. As to the seats, the trains would have had to pass customer acceptance tests by real customers. They wouldn't get into service without it; so blame them. And if you think it'll cost less than the cost of the new trains to keep maintaining and refitting the '67 stock for the next 40 years, wake up and smell the coffee. When the new signalling arrives and you get more frequent, less crowded trains running on smoother track (the old trains destroy the track as soon as it's laid), then I'm sure all you doubters will change your tune. If you're prepared to put up with a iphone with all its faults, then give the 09 stock a fair go before you write it off.
- Bob, Manchester, 29/07/2010 21:46
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The first new Metropolitan Line train is due to enter into service on Saturday, let's hope it gets a better reception!
- Elvis, London, 28/07/2010 23:26
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Read all your comments with interest but can't understand those of you having a pop at the ' Victoria Line Train Operators' as James calls them. I can't see that software issues and breakdowns are their fault at all. Were any of them consulted before the trains were purchased? I would hazard a guess at no.Yet they are at the forefront when there are problems and are expected to sort them out. Spare a thought for them when you suffer the heat on these new trains for your short journey. They are stuck in that heat for their shift.
- christina, Plymouth, UK, 28/07/2010 17:36
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Sure, that's a very reasonable question, and there are several benefits that have come from the line and train upgrades. Points and signals are now much more reliable than they used to be 
and the new trains are a much smoother and quieter ride than the old ones But as far as I can see, (and correct me if I'm wrong,) it looks like they've tried cramming more trains down the lines at peak times to increase capacity, and in the process, caused more congestion in the process, so I'm not sure the newer trains are wholly to blaim for peak time congestion. The old trains were consistently reliable, cooler, and more comfortable (at least two of these factors won't change over time,) and I'm struggling to grasp how spending £900m on vanity upgrades would be cheaper than maintaining trains that have been kept up to a high service standard (inc part replacements,) for over 40 years, especially considering the amount of raw material and man hours put into building new trains weighed against the impact on the environment compared to keeping old trains running. Hoping to be proven wrong though in the long run.
- Steven Moor, Brixton, 28/07/2010 14:04
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Edit - I concur with Steve Moor, not NJ. The old trains did not show any signs of becoming unreliable, so why try to fix a non-problem? I'm sure the wheels and engines and contacts have been replaced 10 times by now. Why not just carry on? Must be cheaper than £900 million?
- HP, London, 28/07/2010 13:50
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Steven Moor- nothing makes me think the old trains are going to keel over and die in the next three years, I never said they would. You have rather missed my point that older trains get increasingly costly to maintain. So the question for LU is, is it worth investing in another retrofit or is it more cost effective to replace them with new trains that will last another 30 or 40 years?
- NJ, London, 28/07/2010 12:41
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NJ, victoria line trains have been in service since the 60s, and have been constantly maintained and upgraded since then. What makes you think they're all going to keel over and die in the next 3 years?
- Steven Moor, Brixton, 28/07/2010 12:20
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Concur with NJ below - even *if* the new trains can be made as reliable as the old ones, they are far less comfortable.
The seats on the old trains were far better quality. They had springs, and the base was angled backward to stop you slipping off. The new ones just look cheap, so now it's often more comfortable to stand! Can someone, anyone point out why the new trains are better in any respect?
Can we start a campaign to keep the old ones before they're destroyed? Apart from massive waste of money (actually worse than a 'waste' - you spend money to make something worse - what's that called? Lunacy?) it's huge waste of resources. All the metal and materials in the old trains replaced for no reason.
If you had £900 billion to spend (do we really?) then why not fix the Circle instead, which is lucky to get above 10mph! Wouldn't that make more sense? Losing the Routemaster buses was a disaster, now this. Transport in London seems to be getting worse as the direct result of politician & co spending our money. Please please stop!
- HP, London, 28/07/2010 12:13
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There's a billion pounds wasted that could have been put to much better use in these dismal financial times. Funny how, just when the economy hits its bottom, there's money available for buying more dysfunctional Underground trains. Please, London Underground, stop your 'wonderful' upgrading -- you are making every commuter's life a total misery at huge cost to the public purse.
- Phil Jones, London EU, 28/07/2010 11:57
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Only an idiot would accept this story at face value. Train reliability is a bell curve, new trains always are going to have reliability problems at the very beginning, like everything new there is going to be teething issues BUT these are ironed out quickly and their reliability rapidly climbs. As for the old trains, sure they are reliable now, but in 2 years or 5 years? As they get older their reliability starts to decline, slowly at first and then quite rapidly, the cost of trying to keep them in service with an acceptable levels of reliability becomes prohibitive. So you replace them before they get to that point even though their reliability is fairly good... it’s called planning ahead. So yes another great non-story to get the idiots red faced and angry about how everything is apparently getting worse, all the time (accept, sorry, it isn’t).
- NJ, London, 28/07/2010 10:59
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2 years ago, before any of the victoria line "upgrades," it would take around 30 minutes to get home from Oxford Circus to Brixton, and hold ups were very rare. Now the line work is nearing completion, and they've started introducing the new trains, it takes 45 minutes minimum to get home every day, the ventilation is much, much worse than the old trains (excessively hot,) and they've even managed to design them to be more uncomfortable than the old trains! How exactly is this classed as a line upgrade? I am seriously considering using the 159 bus to get home, which would be a much more relaxing experience.
- Steven Moor, Brixton, 28/07/2010 10:17
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I don't think we should be sexist about women train drivers. I'm just glad she didn't have to reverse it, even if it is on rails.........
- Steve, London, 27/07/2010 17:29
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I've travelled on the new Vic line trains fairly frequently. Whenever the train encounters a bump, the doors open marginally, probably just a matter of a cm or so. Not sure if this is all part of the design, but it's a little worrying if you are standing right next to it.
- Ali, London, 27/07/2010 16:59
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Maybe Ross Lydall should have picked up the phone and asked the manufacturers, Bombardier in Derby, how many miles of fault free running the new trains have before they are handed to the customer, TfL. Rather basic and pertinent question?
And if the temperatures are soaring when they breakdown, why is there no air-con? Or is there and that's broken too !
- Tom Watson, Milton Keynes, 27/07/2010 15:09
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John Smith, London
I wouldn't work for TFL for £3k a day. They are a shambolic organisation... however I will support the people who have to work for them.
- Rod, Epping UK, 27/07/2010 15:04
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Rod is clearly a TFL employee
- John Smith, London, 27/07/2010 14:53
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John Mathias
You have taken my comments totally out of context. Firstly you were having a pop at the driver, secondly you were factually and technically incorrect, thirdly you were showing a sexist undercurrent (and it was), and fourthly, to answer your newest rant, I don't give a monkies about politics, unions, and the rest...just have more consideration to others, simple!
And here's a tip...you live quite near the centre of town, so either cycle or get a bus and forget the Tube.
- Rod, Epping UK, 27/07/2010 14:51
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Rod, If you got off your union soap box just for one moment, Ithink you'll see that the main gripe was with LT fot not giving enough training to there staff, If this driver had teh rtelevant training and STILL can't open the doors trhen god help all who travel on her trains,and finally YES I think with the appropiate amount of training I could do better, i look forward to your biased response
- John Mathias, London, United Kingdom, 27/07/2010 14:38
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....." furnace like carriages "are they keeping them or not ? or shall i buy my new greenhouse?
- scony, middlesbrough, 27/07/2010 14:31
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I use the central line to commute, and the issue of the brakes coming on when people lean on the doors has been known about for years, so it is not some new thing that only affects the new Victoria Line trains. The simple fact is that the trains where the doors are hung on the outside suffer with this issue, and yet because they are more 'spacious' that the older style doors (i.e. more cattle crammed in the truck) they keep using them. Lets just hope that the Victoria Line Train Operators (not drivers - they don't drive anything, they just press the buttons to open the doors as the trains are automatic) don't also start making announcements about 'not leaning on the doors' .. when people are crammed in like sardines with their faces pressed against the glass in 90 degree heat, these messages tend to annoy people.
- James, London, UK, 27/07/2010 14:30
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I'm sorry but this is not uncommon new rolling stock arrives and fails to work it took correctly. First Capital Connect a long time to reach a descent level of reliability with their new trains there were also long delays in the new equipment arriving so I guess the manufactuer should be brought to account. The thing is with any of our train companies it is always “jam tomorrow” but tomorrow never seems to arrive just like a lot of their trains.
- Mike Melbourne, Bedford, 27/07/2010 14:22
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Rod, this can't possibly be a sloppy piece of journalism. The report quite clearly states that these trains are precisely 23 times less reliable than the old ones. Not 20, or 25 times...exactly 23 times. Admittedly Mr. Lydall doesn't go into any detail whatsoever about how they reached this scientific sum, but if it says 23 times there must have been some rigorous testing involved. I'm now off to make a cuppa with my new kettle, which is 37 times better then my last one.
- East, London, 27/07/2010 14:17
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John Mathias - You cant stall an electric train, believe it or not, the jolt you felt is caused by the you good passengers leaning on the doors! Imagine that, your main complaint was caused by the public on board the train...
- Mike, EC4, 27/07/2010 14:08
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Hmm, pretty sure it was an old-style train at Oxford Circus yesterday...
- Paul, London, 27/07/2010 13:58
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Andy, London
I understand all that and the emergency systems in the carriages will open the doors in an emergency. However, I don't appreciate someone on here depreciating a worker trying her best with new kit...and it had sexist undertones which annoyed me the most.
- Rod, Epping UK, 27/07/2010 13:52
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Rod, Epping.
Being able to open the doors is a fairly major part the job, especially if it was a point of emergency which could cost lives. If I made such errors in my job I would be sacked.
- Andy, London, 27/07/2010 13:19
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John Mathias, London
How pleasant you are towards another person doing their job. If "she" (the driver) were to be watching everything YOU did at work, would she get the chance to announce it on here? No. And how would you take a complete stranger critisizing on the way you work? Probably would upset you, and by the way you are ranting, would probably want to sue. So think before you type please, unless you truly think you could do better.
- Rod, Epping, UK, 27/07/2010 13:07
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Let your soul be your pilot
- Jim, London, 27/07/2010 13:03
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I was on that tube yesterday morning, and maybe TFL could actually spend a bit of time on training up their drivers, The driver of yesterdays tube couldn't open the doors at Highbury and Islington for about 5 minutes until an off duty driver knocked on her cab and asked her "Do you need a hand ?" As soon as HE went into the cab hey presto the doors opened !!!!
The remainder of the journey consisted of either kangaroo jumps between staions or a remake of "The taking of Pelham 123 at high speed between the staions.
Then she "stalls" the tube just as we 'd left Oxford Circus and there we all stood sweat dripping off everyone waiting on announcements untill we were walked off the train with just a couple of platform staff in attendence for they severely overheated passengers.Better training for the drivers is a priority and maybe just maybe TFL could put some trained staff on the platforms for these occurancces to hand out water etc , Once again London Underground you are a SHAMBLES
- John Mathias, London, United Kingdom, 27/07/2010 12:57
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Yes Nobby, usual 1 sided view to grab the headlines. It would have been better for Ross Lydall to have done a comparison from 43 years ago and the normal teething problems new trains have on any transport system...not hard as everything is at his fingertips online. Sloppy reporting and sensationalist headlines...nothing new!!
- Rod, Epping, UK, 27/07/2010 12:53
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Bit soon to be comparing reliability of a train over 3 months to one that has been running for 43 years. How often did the 1967 vintage trains break down when they were introduced?
And as for gathering quotes and sources from Twitter, please spare us the in-depth journalism.
- Nobby Clark, Perth, the Scottish one, 27/07/2010 12:39
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