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Charlie from London says - Quran says "don't stand out, don't draw attention to yourself and don't to go against local customs...."

This claim about Quran is unfounded in the Quran. You are welcome to provide proof for your claim.

As for my points about the legal and moral aspects of wearing full body covering or going naked - there is no impediment in this country as I have pointed out before. My points still remain unaddressed.

If there is to be a social pressure on conforming to the customs - then the individual freedom means nothing. This is one of my arguments.

- Shaheen, London, 02/08/2010 20:35
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Shaheen - when the Koran says, "don't stand out, don't draw attention to yourself and don't to go against local customs...." what part of that do you think a burqa isn't doing? Also, how can someone deliberately flouting local customs be considered a 'good neighbour' as the Koran obliges Muslims to be? What would the punishment under Sharia law be for going against the Koran in such a way?

The Koran is a document meant to keep Muslims under control - of course it doesn't, but that is its aim, no?

Wearing the burqa/face veil shows as much cultural sensitivity as a Western woman walking down the street in her bikini in a Muslim country - it's provocative, childish, insolent and meant to be.

You say that going naked is not forbidden?? Anyone walking down the street naked would be charged with offending public morals straightaway!

- Charlie, London, England, 30/07/2010 19:34
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Dear Pogue:

You have mentioned about certain restrictions of going to various places in England. However, these kind of restrictions do not form part of the legal framework in England. If someone is to come to my house, I have the right to impose conditions.

So, going back to my point about the legal status of wearing clothes partly or fully or even going naked (Sexual Offences Act 2003) - does not involve committing a crime. Neither there is any moral impediment in a land which takes pride in upholding the values of 'freedom' and 'democracy'. In fact, it fights other nations for these 'principles'.

As for the certain aspects of the Islamic law - these matters are not being discussed in this thread.

- Shaheen, London, 30/07/2010 11:24
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For the attention Pogue:

You mentioned about certain restrictions and dress codes in going to a number of places in England. However, these restrictions do not form part of the legal framework. Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 - it is not a crime in itself to go naked in public.

As for the other aspects of the Islamic law you mentioned - we are not discussing the Islamic law here. We are simply discussing the right to wear as one pleases, community cohesion and moral standard.

So far, you have failed to address the legal and moral issues I have raised.

- Shaheen, London, 30/07/2010 11:16
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I was going to say that they should be barred from the bus for good, because of their unfounded allegations, that could have cost the driver his job. They certainly wouldn't be welcome on any bus I was driving. Trouble is, how would you recognise the one wearing the niqab?

- David Catleugh, Newton Aycliffe, 30/07/2010 09:16
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Dear Concerned Chap you have made some interesting points here. You mentioned:

On intergration, then this needs to be defined clearer and the degree of intergration needs to be consistent for all communities. For example we can talk about muslim communities and I agree there are problems there, but I find equally similar problems when I go to an Afro-Carribean, White British or Jewish area, I can feel an unwanted stranger amongst people who want to preserve their cultural identities.

With regards other muslim countries the point is, if we were there then we would have to abide by their laws, just as we do here in the UK, and as shaheen has also pointed out, who broke the law with the Burka? There are many more problems in this society such as crime amongst youth which is more likely to affect us in our everyday lives than a woman wearing a burka.

However your correct we have to be aware of the sensitivities of the people around them , but the influx of muslims is not something recent, muslims have existed in the UK for many a year, however the media protrayal of muslims has generated many negative views of the community, some are understandable but others down right lies and exajerations.

A more recent influx of peoples would be the Eastern Europeans. How come things such as their anti-social behaviour due to excessive drinking on public transport is not a problem raised? (for exp)

There needs more understanding & work from all parties involved in this debate

- Abul Eyse, London, 29/07/2010 22:57
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Hello Frank

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. There is blatant racism and islamaphobia here and we should not try and think these terms are being used willy nilly.

You said:

"A phobia is a fear of something, we do not fear Islam."

Unfortunatley this is not the case, as we see with Rob in his post where he mentioned:

"I meant specifically you and NJ. Just because I don't think you're really that into social cohesion as you seem to want to portray and I'd rather not take the risk."

So the guy who doesn't even know me and thinks I am lying about my views is actually an islamaphobe and being islamaphobic

As for the racism part, then one does not need to be an expert to know where this "go back to your country" part came from, if this isn't racism then what is?

So you can be racist to a muslim, you can dislike his views and request he be returned to his place of "origins" as he no longer belongs amongst those who are racially different.

Rob, you also mentioned:

"Everyone else can stay! As long as they don't want to create upheaval thats alright by me! So no little island needed just a big one for good honest hardworking people"

would that also include those who are british and want to create upheaval and mischief?

You cannot be racist towards a Muslim, as Islam is a religious grouping not a race of people. I suggest using such provocative terms are as intentional as the initial actions of the those two stupid little girls.

- Abul Eyse, London, 29/07/2010 22:43
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@Shaheen

Women are told not to go topless on the beach. Men are told they must wear a shirt to be served in pubs and are barred from smart restaurants if they’re not wearing a jacket and tie.

Teens in hooded tops are refused entry to shopping centres, while trainers won’t get you into many nightclubs, football shirts are banned in some pubs on match days and I doubt very much whether any of us would get served in a shop or restaurant if we were wearing a balaclava, never mind a bank or airport.

What about allowing men to have more than one wife or supporting forced marriages? Why do we not back female circumcision, honour killings, the imposition of Sharia law or even stoning women to death for adultery? Aren’t these things just as much a part of “Muslim culture”, for the people who believe in them, as a woman wearing a veil?

This garb is NOT required by the Quran. NOWHERE in the Quran does it state that a woman's face and body must be covered in a layer of heavy cloth! The veil is a tool of oppression used to alienate and control women under the guise of religious freedom. This is militant Islam trying to test our resolve, only brainwashed idiot Islamists and the idiots like the Islam sect of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia support this Burka!

- Pogue, London, 29/07/2010 21:20
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The central points are being overlooked by the majority of the posters here.

Is full body cover illegal in this country? The answer is no.

Is 'community cohesion' part of the legal framework of the UK? The answer is no.

Does individual freedom to wear whatever an individual likes prevail in this land? Yes.

Is it morally right that those who preach 'freedom' and 'democracy' should allow people to wear the dress they like? Yes.

Come on with your refutation if you so wish.

- Shaheen, London, 29/07/2010 20:50
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Let's get back to a few basics rather than resort to extreme comments.

Burkas and Niqabs largely cover the entire face (the others, more like headscarves, don't). People covering their face have, traditionally, been thought to have something to hide - a balaclava or crash helmet was always the most common version in the western world.

As so much can be gleaned from faces, facial expressions etc, I would have hoped that *all* races and religions would have seen the common sense in not covering the face. If a particular race or religion, whoever it may be, cannot accept that simple request then I think we have to assume that the individual(s) has no wish to co-operate with their fellow citizens. Only those should consider moving to a country more suited to their needs.

Robert

- Robert Jamieson, Notts, 29/07/2010 17:23
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Might I suggest that the real underlying issue here is the wholesale change in demographic & culture in a very short period of time.

I grew up in the town where these girls live. My experience on many occasions, particularly with the Muslim community is that there appears to be very little integration. I have worked abroad, in one of the poorer countries of the middle east & often, parts of Slough on a Friday are identical to there.

Is that a problem? Only when a relatively new community refuses to acknowledge the position of others. You see, I cannot imagine any Muslim country that would be happy to see a widespread & large-scale change to the social & religious fabric of their society.

It is of no use to drag up the previous behaviour of the British Empire, because that was then, & much of it was wrong. This is now, & that view is still wrong.

I would just like members of the Muslim (& other foreign communities) to acknowledge that the rapid & sizeable change in the existing community has an affect on those that have been established there for many years.

If one cannot see how people, who within a few years find the culture right outside their front door & in their vicinity has completely changed beyond recognition, might feel a little uncomfortable or intimidated, then there is no hope.

If this view makes me a racist, then so be it.

Thanks for reading.

- Concerned Chap, East berkshire, 29/07/2010 12:07
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Actually - Abul Eyse, London, 28/07/2010 22:30 I meant specifically you and NJ. Just because I don't think you're really that into social cohesion as you seem to want to portray and I'd rather not take the risk. Everyone else can stay! As long as they don't want to create upheaval thats alright by me! So no little island needed just a big one for good honest hardworking people.

- Rob, London, 29/07/2010 12:01
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"But there seems to be a few here who like to go a bit overboard in order to fuel Islamaphobia and racism."
- Abul Eyse, London

Actually it is neither Islamaphobia nor racism.

A phobia is a fear of something, we do not fear Islam. You cannot be racist towards a Muslim, as Islam is a religious grouping not a race of people. I suggest using such provocative terms are as intentional as the initial actions of the those two stupid little girls.

- Frank, Home Counties, England., 29/07/2010 11:14
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Well said Abul Eyse
I totally agree. How far back do we go? I am white British but 3rd generation Italian immigrant. Should I go home too?

- Samuel, London, 29/07/2010 10:55
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Rogan, I agree, the use of the Islamaphobia card is of no use to society, nor for individuals be they muslims and non-muslims, infact it will only generate more hate and misunderstanding amongst us all, where as if we all plan to live in this society together then we need to ensure we can all understand the limits and be considerate of other people and the sesitivities they have. If it is shown to the public that the behaviour of these two women was out of of order then of course using Islam/Islamaphobia as an excuse is absolutley wrong and not justifiable. But neither is such an incident exemplary of many women who wear niqaab. But there seems to be a few here who like to go a bit overboard in order to fuel Islamaphobia and racism.

- Abul Eyse, London, 29/07/2010 10:32
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"Banning the veil or blocking the building of minarets would alienate the Muslim community and threaten social cohesion."
- Iftikhar Ahmad, Forest Gate London

Social cohesion???? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

"Muslim women, who are considered equal to men in spirituality, education and worth."
- Iftikhar Ahmad, Forest Gate London

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! The funniest comment I have read on here so far.

Just goes to show the parallel universe that Muslims live in when in a western society. Islam has no place in the "West". The two ideologies are simply at different ends of the scale.

- Frank, Home Counties, England., 29/07/2010 09:21
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Iftikhar
Are you the same "Iftikhar" who used to post extreme material on the gumtree forums?
Just wondering???

- Russell, London, 29/07/2010 08:59
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BBC presents the story at a bit different angle: "Yasmin told the BBC she was "totally shocked" at what Metroline had to say and was taking legal advice."

Hey, BBC will not stop playing a race card that easily.

- Vlad, Barking, 29/07/2010 08:29
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Andrew tel aviv,is at it once again!! Someome who wears a niqab or burka is not necessarily from a 3rd world.
The beauty of the wonderful United Kingdom we live in is that there is so much freedom here.We can go out skimpily clad or all covered up, maybe wear a clowns outfit but out govt/state will not intefere. We demonstrate our feelings and speech and noone inteferes.I could go on and on....but I won't.
Also to rob irving I do know what the saying, when in rome be like the romans, etc etc...my previous comment was sarcastic! Back to the story at hand, these 2 idiot women. as stupid as they are have the freedom to cause problems and complain and moan...be it true or false...that's their perrogative.. But I suppose in a country like yours drop a few missiles here n there should sort it out right ?? Well not in the UK.

- ishi, London, 29/07/2010 08:06
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Regarding the 'rightwing' viewpoints. There were a couple, no more, that were heading that way, agreed. I condemn them just as much as I condemn the equal and opposite extreme perspective of the people commenting on that rather than the incident at hand. Most of the comments about the veils and the Islamic aggressive attitude are from people who are just fed up with being required to make concessions to a self isolating portion of the public that makes few or no concessions in return.

That's not extremism. That is tolerance stretched to its limit and beyond.

- Rogan, Irving, 29/07/2010 03:51
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Abul Eyse - you appear to have forgotten to address that little detail about them playing the Islamophobia card when they couldn't get their own way, and apparently lying to get the driver in trouble - then the escalation of this incident to an international level with Islamic press and media covering it under their original accusation but apparently not interested in the rather less inflammatory reality of two young women being caught out in a lie.

The hate isn't one sided.

- Rogan, Irving, 29/07/2010 03:36
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Rogan,irving, jheez man I do know the saying, when in rome do as tje romans. Gosh I'm not that dumb!! But thanks anyway for highlighting. My previous comment was purely sarcasm.

- ishi, london, 29/07/2010 01:33
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I forgot, they won't be charged with anything and they fellow students at college won't have any opportunity to deal with them. Because they are not identifiable. The ES already said it won'y ID, and the BBC certainly won't give them up.

These TWO Liars, have actually done their misguided cause a disservice/counter productive. Genuine veil wearer who becomes victims, will not easily believed. Just like some women crying false rape.

- Ern,Expat,UKTaxpayer, Clermont, Fl,USA, 28/07/2010 23:41
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I'm not going to take issue with any other posted comments on this. Suffice to make my own observation.

What if there was no CCTV to prove the driver was within his RIGHTS to refuse these TWO liars. Dressed up in Islamic apparels???

The driver would most likely have been reprimanded, at worst lost his job & called a racist.The bus company sued for compensation, by these TWO Liars.

This particular incident is another nail in the coffin for not allowing anyone to cover up in all public places.

These TWO Liars, are able to enjoy anonymity, because they cannot be fully ID by the public/passengers on the bus, and the ES has compounded that injustice be not naming them.The BBC was ever so happy to make their false complaint public, but is no longer new worthy.Bias! You bet!

Where are those loud mouth Islamic Orgs, coming out and condemning this kind of behaviour. Or, the police charging these TWO liars for perverting justice.

- Ern,Expat,UKTaxpayer, Clermont, Fl,USA, 28/07/2010 23:20
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Yes Rob, lets send 'em all back to where they came from until your the only one left! Or perhaps we just ship you off onto you own little island where you don't have anyone left to hate, but hang on, who would you have to make your nasty, snide and, frankly unfunny, comments about then?

- NJ, London, 28/07/2010 22:39
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Rob, I see your not capable of actually dealing with the points, It must be hurting you. Fear not, indeed with knowledge one can leave ignorance and be more understanding.

Racism is a disease, worse than Aids, if people are to leave this country due to being non-indigenou then one need to define this and be clear as to what they want and desire.

If you are unclear as to your heritage you will get Rob et al

- Abul Eyse, London, 28/07/2010 22:30
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There is a social and economic pressure of on Muslim women not to cover themselves with Hijab or Niqab. Syeda Warsi is a member of the Toy Cabinet becaus she does not cover herself with Hijab or Niqab. Only those Muslim women who are having post of responsibility are those who do not cover themselves. Only those Muslim women recieve OBE, who do not cover themselves. Banning the veil or blocking the building of minarets would alienate the Muslim community and threaten social cohesion. There is no need for the British Establishment to ban Niqab because it is a Munafiq society. Those westen European countries who have banned Niqab are Kaffir.

A careful reading of the Qur’an shows that just about everything Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available 1,400 years ago to Muslim women, who are considered equal to men in spirituality, education and worth. When Islam offers women so much, why are Western men so obsessed with Muslim women’s attire? Even British government ministers Gordon Brown and John Reid have made disparaging remarks about the niqab, and they hail from Scotland, where men wear skirts.

“common sense” not to wear the niqab because it makes social relations “more difficult.” Nonsense. If this were the case, why are cell phones, e-mail, text messaging and fax machines in daily use?

Covering ones body up does not reduce their intelligence or physical and mental capabilties in running their home, raising their kids, getting a degree, making money, being an informed member of society or their social interaction with other fellow humans. The niqaab does not make them inferior.

Today, our society encourages women to show off their bodies, and not show off their brains. Female models are often underweight, and the media tells us this is the way women should look like!! dont make me laugh!!!!
Iftikhar ahmad

- Iftikhar Ahmad, Forest Gate London, 28/07/2010 21:41
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4-People say they should "Go back to where they came from" why should they? And how many generations back does this apply to?
- Abul Eyse, London, 28/07/2010 20:36

i would say as far back as to include you

- Rob, London, 28/07/2010 21:14
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I find this level of discussion limited to the ignorance of those who propose simplistic arguments such as "go back to where you came from" or "if we were in their country..."

Lets get this right:

1-When the british were in other countries they ransacked, pillaged and robbed them of their resources

2-To follow British law means, if it is legal to wear a niqaab then that is legally fine. So what "Law" do indigenous British people require those of non-indigenous British heritage to follow if this is not from the law of the land?

3-If we are to argue "when we go to their country we have to follow their laws" well what do you expect? Just like when you go to any other country in the Western world you also have to follow their laws. So as was shown in the previous point, unless the action is illegal then it is deemed legal and part of the law of the land.

4-People say they should "Go back to where they came from" why should they? And how many generations back does this apply to?

- Abul Eyse, London, 28/07/2010 20:36
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One has to wonder what constitutes "abusive behaviour2 for london's bus companies. I was abused by a bus driver who drove off with my hand stuck in the door when I tried to board it. When I complained with full details and description of the bus licence plate number etc I was tol things would eb investigated, but he still drives buses so guess it must be ok. GThe same bus driver previously told me to "F... off" when I tapped on the window to ask if he was going to open the doors

- Abul Eyse, London, 28/07/2010 20:27
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ishi, London - that was a play on the very old adage, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". It means that the newcomer adapts to the hosts, not the other way around.

- Rogan, Irving, 28/07/2010 19:49
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Why do you refuse to give their full names?Even innocent men accused of sexual assault are named whereas in this case,the guilty are spared.Shame on the Standard.

- micheal, london, 28/07/2010 19:31
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Dear vince london of west london, I think the veil is ridiculous, however pray do tell what the English do in ASBO cultured England ?

- ishi, London, 28/07/2010 19:29
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I think the point of the story is these Muslim students claimed to have been discriminated against because they were wearing the Burka, that's secularism not racism.

However, it would seem this is not the case as CCTV proved otherwise.

Comments from the likes of NJ (you're not the person who spouts on with leftist remarks on the Londonist site are you?)are the racists. You assume because readers criticise these girls behaviour they must be right wing nazi flag waving fiends, the paradox of this story is they played a secular card and it backfired.

- Ward, Ealing, London, 28/07/2010 19:00
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These youths are a disgrace and a danger to society. In this case cctv has revealed the truth, but one can only imagine the dreadful anxiety and possible outcome for the bus driver without having cctv as his defense.
We all know that these two contemptuous female hoodies will walk free of any punishment just by being a part of the minority community, an advantage they have learnt to abuse.
We are a fair and tolerant nation that opens it's boarders to those in need, but we are being hoodwinked and our own liberties compromised in the name of multi culturism.

- Global Gypsy, London, 28/07/2010 18:59
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When in England do as the English do! .... or get out.

- Vince London, West London, 28/07/2010 18:58
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STG, Peckham - while outwarding seeming a reasoned approach to the incident, you appear to me to be pasting your own negative experiences elsewhere onto this driver and this incident. It may well be that there are too many drivers getting away with rudeness (or, perhaps in many cases) gruffness after too many faces and too many incidents during their workday. But the EVIDENCE in this case appears to support the driver's version.

Tom, London - you make an entire post out of saying or implying "might be", "possibly", "could be".

Even if the bus companies "routinely" suppport their staff over customer complaints, they are quoting the evidence rather than making vague assertions as you are. This suggests to me that the details are not insubstantial, if only in this case.

Someone else tried to score points against 'rightwing' viewpoints. There were a couple, no more, that were heading that way, agreed. I condemn them just as much as I condemn the equal and opposite extreme perspective of the people commenting on that rather than the incident at hand. Most of the comments about the veils and the Islamic aggressive attitude are from people who are just fed up with being required to make concessions to a self isolating portion of the public that makes few or no concessions in return.

That's not extremism. That is tolerance stretched to its limit and beyond.

- Rogan, Irving, 28/07/2010 18:36
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what a surprise, but according to Caroline Spelman the Burkha does empower women.

- daves, chelmsford uk, 28/07/2010 18:30
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Kinda getting fed up with people on these boards spouting on about how the country has gone to the dogs etc etc yet never seeming to do anything about the situation other then moan,moan and moan. Please don't moan to me next about how we cannot do anything about it. You can but are to selfish and lazy to act upon your concerns,right?

- Gary, London, 28/07/2010 18:03
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I'm not the biggest fan of CCTV but in this case its proved its worth - clearing the bus driver and showing up these two chancers who were probably after an 'out of court' payment from the bus company.

- Paxton Pat, London, UK, 28/07/2010 17:49
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".. it will never be as bad as it is in USA. We really are of a different mind set here in the uk."
- ishi, London

"it" already is.

- Frank, Home Counties, England., 28/07/2010 17:16
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These people are so sensitive. Compared with the rights we have in their Third World countries we are non-starters.
If our own people started supporting the rights and interests of our own people life would be better in our own country.
Sorry, of course we don't have any rights nowadays.

- michael, London, UK, 28/07/2010 17:05
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If I went to an asian islamic country ie Dubi, I would have to obey there rules and cover myself up even on the beach or face jail. Burkas ARE NOT BRITISH,therefore anyone wanting to wear the burka and/or niquab in Britain, when in public should remove it and conform to british culture/laws or be sent straight back home to the asian country they orignate from. England is too tolerent and give in to islamic needs too much ie the want of swimming in private but in public swimming pools. This must stop. If we were less tolerent, the immigration rate would certainly decrease.

- Louise, Croydon Surrey England, 28/07/2010 16:57
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Dear Sam of Manhattan, USA, you say you are having the same problems in the USA,believe me no matter how bad it gets here in the UK it will never be as bad as it is in USA. We really are of a different mind set here in the uk.

- ishi, London, 28/07/2010 16:55
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Agree with Anne of London. The veil MIGHT imply piety of conduct, but apparently does not guarantee honesty. Ladies, whoever you are, you should be ashamed of yourselves for debasing rectitude of conduct. Islam, Christianity, Judaism - last time I checked, NONE of them condoned dishonest behavior.

- David, Ljubljana, Slovenia, 28/07/2010 16:46
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Amazing isn't it..no doubt Liberty will want to represent them as usual. come up with some nonesense etc...

- James, UK, 28/07/2010 16:42
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If the veil don't fit you must acquit

- OJ, Las Vegas formally of Los Angeles, 28/07/2010 16:14
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Gary- You may have marched against racism in the 1970’s and I applaud you for that, but the same people who used racist rhetoric against the black/ Asian communities back then are the same people who use it against the Muslim community now. I disagree that it’s just one or two tin-pot racists, read through these comments, they really can’t believe their luck that they can have a legitimate pop at these Muslim girls but it’s not difficult to see that their sanctimonious moralising is a thin veneer for ugly Islamophobia, precisely why the ES thinks it newsworthy, it is no coincidence that this is the most commented on story of the day.

- NJ, London, 28/07/2010 15:57
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Saj (London): You are the pathetic one in that you feel the need to start throwing around insults. It seems however that my coment has been censored. This is the real problem: that people cannot make a distinction between race and religion anymore. Religion shold be fair game for any comment: just as politics. The fact that you put God in front of a comment is neither here nor there. Sadly, the ES has fallen into the same trap. Freedom of expression is increasingly under threat in the UK. We may as well have Sharia at this rate.

- Alan J, London, 28/07/2010 15:42
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Harry, don't think a black bus driver or black passengers would take any better to these girls bad behaviour. Stirrer to bring colour into it.

People are just becoming tired and offended by some Muslims demanding special treatment. The Muslim bus drivers in the Midlands who refuse to take blind people accompanied by their guide dogs on the bus, are tip-toed around instead of being hauled on the mat or even sacked.

- Susan, London, 28/07/2010 15:32
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Hope they both get charged with something like wasting police time, causing breach of the peace etc etc.
Sooner something is done about correct dress code the better. Hiding behind a veil conjures all types of sinister meanings and this in my mind nothing to do with race.
Just look at what happens to people who go on holiday, business trips and don't adhere to those customs in that country!!
The same applies in the UK so if one isn't prepared to accept those customs then kick them out.

- peter, Vienna, Austria, 28/07/2010 15:31
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We need to be so clear here: These crazies hate white people and especially English white people. They are attempting to retaliate for the British Empire. Understand what is going on. Be strong. Love your culture. You will prevail. We in the states are having the ssame problems.

- sam, Manhattan, USA, 28/07/2010 15:22
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When will the English realise that most foreigners consider this land a gravy train. The stiff upper lip and tolerant nature of the people in England is being totally abused. I have lived in the Middle East and let me assure you that they would not for one moment tolerate similiar behaviour in their Country as one has to live by their rules. Meanwhile the English (of which I am one) NEVER Stand Up and be counted. It is up to the people to send a strong message to the Goverment that enough is enough and the doors need closed firmly on immigration before this Country is totally ruined.

- Ricky Holmes, Hampshire, 28/07/2010 15:20
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Some of these women wearing a burka like to think they are whiter than white. I once parked my car in front of a Muslim women, and as I got out of the car she started yelling at me for parking too close to her car. I knew I hadn't and just to make doubly sure I was listening to my parking sensor, so I don't get my bumper scuffed when someone was parking or getting out of that space. I very calmly said, that she had more than enough room to get out. Guess what, she just drove away without saying a word.

This lady's conduct was atrocious and I can tell you this wasn't the first time I have had bad experiences with women with the same attitude. These two ladies remind me of those ladies who dress to show off how pious they are, yet behave no differently to any other unreasonable person.

- karim, London, 28/07/2010 15:11
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NJ - you're missing the point here pal. This is news because it's a new story. You're right that arguments between passengers and driver on a bus aren't news but this is because it has an additional, newsworthy and current component.
Yes there may be one or two right wing tin pots, but many of us were on the anti nazi marches in the 70's and we hate extremism of all guises. Extremism and appeasement, twin evils I reckon.

- gary, cambridge, 28/07/2010 14:51
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Charges should be brought against these women, the video should be released to the news agencies and they should be named and shamed. You can not go around accusing people at will of racism and inciting this because of religious beliefs. This man could have lost his job and dignity because of these lying trouble makers. Makes you wonder how many other false racism claims there are out there? Laws have to be changed as there are many foriegners abusing the liberal left racism laws that mainly see whote people charged.

- Dirk Diggler, Soho, London UK, 28/07/2010 14:43
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Tom, London, 28/07/2010 12:48

The bus driver is responsible for the passengers and their safety, the money he carries, the vehicle itself and other road users, by law. I have done the job! I was always told, if someone is likely to cause a problem, no matter who they are, you do not carry them because of the potencial threat to other humans. So as I said, it's not a racial thing, but they lied and I bet the driver has been through hell for the last week, probably suspended without pay. Get rid of this ridiculous notion that people from other faiths can wear and do what they like. It DOESN'T WORK in a supposedly modern society such as ours.

- Rod, Epping UK, 28/07/2010 14:37
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I agree with Rob... they should be named and shamed. They should also pay for all the cost of the investigation... Justice please!

- Vicente, London, 28/07/2010 14:33
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As usual we see unfounded claims of discrimination from badly behaved Muslims who don't get their own way. Just like in Palestine.

- Matt, London, UK, 28/07/2010 14:19
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I wonder what would happen if our goverment said you
have to wear it!!

- Richard, Rayleigh, 28/07/2010 14:16
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A hundred lashes then deportation and then compensation for the poor bus driver is in .

- michaelcampbell, Londonderry N Ireland, 28/07/2010 14:11
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Shows that a burqua and niqab are no guarantees of a devout or religious person. That muslim women and girls can be just as yobbish as any. Big diff is that most aren't hypocrites, using religious garb to hide a multitude of sins.

- Anne, London, 28/07/2010 14:03
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All this fuss over silly, archaic rituals designed to make their "imaginary friend" happy?

- trip hazard, cambridge, 28/07/2010 13:58
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gary, cambridge- No, I doubt they will as as it isn't actually a story. How often do arguments between bus drivers and passengers happen in London every day I wonder? Perhaps the ES would like to publish all of these incidents as 'news'. Or perhaps they choose to just publish the ones that concern Muslims so that the tin-pot racists that populate these boards can spew their sad predictable bile

- NJ, London, 28/07/2010 13:53
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Alan, J - you really are pathetic.

The story is quite clearly about two girls playing the race card whilst boarding a bus and getting caught out.

Yes they should be named, shamed and made to pay compensation to the driver if his version is correct.

It's nothing to do with religion or what it may or may not teach so why do you feel the need to make disparaging comments about a figure in Islam??

- Saj, London, 28/07/2010 13:45
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When was the last time there was a sand storm in the UK?
We need to ban these ridiculous desert borne outfits, they have no place in twenty-first Century European society.

- MC, London, 28/07/2010 13:39
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I wonder if the Guardian will run this story?

- gary, cambridge, 28/07/2010 13:29
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Tom, London, 28/07/2010 12:48

The bus company's investigation ahs to be objective, otherwise tehy coudl fgace a huge race discrimination claim. I would believe a company who is more likley to have a cross section of races and who is aware of the penalties they face, than two veiled women who demand entrance onto a bus that has stopped at its final destination; then claim religious discrimination.

Disgusting!

- Paul, London, 28/07/2010 13:21
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A stoning would be appropriate.

- gwilym rhys-jones, marbella spain, 28/07/2010 13:13
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These two Muslims were happy to lie in order to see a man engaged in his job possibly face the sack and charges of racism to save their (veiled) faces. They should be charged with incitement of racial hatred or whatever the charge is and made an example of.

- Squiz, Islington, 28/07/2010 13:08
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Best use of the religion card yet.

Show your faces or don't live here. This is ENGLAND.

- Tony the Trader, Limehouse, London, 28/07/2010 12:57
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"due to abusive behaviour towards bus driver and other passengers"

Just looking at the vehement one way responses, now and when the story was first covered (even before any investigation) is quite telling.

What was the "abusive behaviour" against other passengers? the standard doesn't elaborate on that.

When a bus driver calls people a "threat"
in these circumstances could he have been more sensitive with the use of language or was he deliberately rubbing it in? Antagonising? Or shall we all just call anybody muslim looking that we don't like a "threat"?

"Banging on the front doors" Is that such a terrible thing to do. Bus doors don't exactly have door bells. Would people try to board if they knew this was the end of the route?

I've come across bus drivers who think they own the transport system.

Maybe these ladies were guilty of playing the race card. Perhaps they had a genuine grievance. Maybe the bus driver had legitimate reason to deny them to board. An investigation by the bus company doesn't exactly prove the bus driver was oh so right!

- Tom, London, 28/07/2010 12:48
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The driver Should sue for Deformation of Character. The 2 students are no better than hoodies. It's people like these that are giving Islam a bad name. Shame on you both.

- Paul Humphreys, Essex, 28/07/2010 12:47
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at last justice for all

- Colin, London, 28/07/2010 12:44
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OMG...That is disgutsing and confirms my experience . I live in south london where I see many persons of verious religious dress and find tehm to be rude and inconsiderate. They then claim religious discrimination!

The driver shoudl totally sue them.

APPALLING!

- Paul, London, 28/07/2010 12:33
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Well said, all so far - definitely couldn't agree more.

- Nowan, London, 28/07/2010 12:32
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Finally a bit of common sense has prevailed. The women involved should be prosecuted to teach them a lesson, and when false accusations of race start flying around I think there should be penalties that equal actual racist slur. I'm sure driving a bus is made to be pretty miserable by idiots like these.

- Matt, London England, 28/07/2010 12:30
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"Prehaps they should attend a christian church to be taught the differrence between right and wrong."

Yes because Catholics for example really know the difference between right and wrong, for example systematically covering up child abuse by Priests, allowing the guilty to hide from justice by being moved to different areas or countries! That particualr church is having to sell many assets to pay off victims.

Anyway in the above case I wish the driver would sue the two women, their statements about "all I could do was cry" have been shown to utter rubbish and to be honest I am delighted about this outcome !

- Lee W, London, 28/07/2010 12:16
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Rod

"The niqab is being used to commit crimes" - really? On how many occasions? Is there some Niqabi crime wave?

I was not on the bus but if there was no sound then it's difficult to know precisely what happened. I have made complaints about bus drivers before (as a white man) and even when you do have their exact detail of what happened, time and date and even the number plate of the bus (they always refuse to give you their name) you either get:

a) "we were unable to identify the person responsible from the information you provided"

or

b) "the driver's version of what happened differed slightly to yours but we've spoken to him and it won't happen again" or similar.

And drivers in my experience only ever are rude to people they perceive will not react. It's always when I have had kids with me and drivers think parents won't react with their kids in tow that they are rude or ignore you at the bus stop etc.

Yet when some hoodie gets on without paying they ignore it as it is too much effort to deal with. Drivers are generally cowards.

This particular driver may or may not be in the 'right', but the bus companies do cover up for their drivers on a regular basis and I have no faith in them.

Based on both stories, it may well be that both 'stories' are true, the women were abusive and then the driver ended up being abusive.

- STG, Peckham, London, 28/07/2010 12:16
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Perhaps all complaints that might result in someone losing their job should be made as sworn statements (affidavits). Then liars could be prosecuted for perjury, which is what they deserve.

And yes, this is an example of why burquas should be banned. If these women had just abused the driver and then run away, the CCTV in the bus would have been rendered useless and they'd have got away with it for certain. A burqua isn't simply an item of clothing, it's a disguise.

- Nigel, London, 28/07/2010 12:14
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Quality and balanced reporting from the unbiased BBC.

Hmm ... is this anything to do with the head of religious programming for the BBC being a Muslim I wonder?

Probably just my imagination and I am sure one of my regular detractors will put me straight! They will of course have nothing to say on the actions of these Muslim girls.

- Frank, Home Counties, England., 28/07/2010 12:13
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Just goes to show why burkhas should not be permitted on public transport. With their faces hidden, they evidently felt free to abuse and intimidate. A voluntarily worn burkha is an open sign of defiance against Western society and such antisocial behaviour comes as no surprise.

- Andrew, Hampton Hill, 28/07/2010 12:11
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And why, ES, did you agree not to publish the full names of these apalling girls? They should be named & shamed - even if we can't see their faces!

- John Bull, London, 28/07/2010 12:09
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Added to the gravity of these women's appalling conduct is that they have helped spread anti British sentiment in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. This story is picked up by all the news agencies and is widespread in all these countries, under inflammatory headlines like the one above about Britain banning Muslim women veil wearers on its buses. In many places it has produced outcry and uproar worldwide. These women have caused widespread damage, especially to the driver of the bus.

- Suresh, South London, 28/07/2010 12:07
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now they should be prosecuted lets start getting things right in this country for a change the driver should sue

- anon leicestershire, leicestershire, 28/07/2010 11:59
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This doesn't surprise me and it's not a racial issue, never has been. The niqab is being used to commit crimes and all too often is literally "hidden behind" for legal reasons. It's time to ban them completely in this country.

- Rod, Epping UK, 28/07/2010 11:59
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Now all them people that came on here defending the two muslims can see what they really are.

Playing the race card is exactly the same as being racist.

- Dal, Bromley, 28/07/2010 11:53
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It is so easy for some to play the race card; just a shame the driver can't sue for defamation of character.

- DannyP, Egham, 28/07/2010 11:50
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I hope they are charged for making false accusations against an innocent man.Prehaps they should attend a christian church to be taught the differrence between right and wrong.

- dave, london, 28/07/2010 11:48
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Maybe the driver should sue them for defamation and hurt feelings.

- SarahJenkins, London, 28/07/2010 11:41
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What - someone's played the race card because they didn't get what they wanted. No, surely not.

Maybe it's about time that the authorities considered punishing people to the equal degree if they throw accusations about that are so obviously unjustified.

And just think - all you people out there who really do face racial discrimination - just imagine how far these people have helped progress your fight.

- Rob, London, 28/07/2010 11:40
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