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Burger boss: 'why go to university when you can learn on the job?'
Jonathan Prynn and Anna Davis11 May 2011
The head of McDonald's in Britain today said school leavers would be better off getting jobs in burger bars than going to university.
Jill McDonald said it was time to abandon the snobbery linked to workplace, rather than university, education.
Speaking in London at a conference attended by Chancellor George Osborne, she said: "We need to acknowledge that the road many young people take today may not be the one we took in the past.
"We need to remove the snobbery that does down workplace learning. For many put off by high fees, this could and should be the route they take."
Her comments are bound to reignite the controversy over university tuition fees of £9,000 on the first anniversary of the coalition government.
A "McJob" has become a term for low-paid, dead end work that requires few skills. But Ms McDonald said that 16,000 of their British staff are studying for nationally recognised qualifications on courses organised by their employer, which has an Ofsted rating.
Ms McDonald said: "We now see the equivalent of six full classes gain adult certificates in maths and English every week and we've now awarded
3,000 Level 2 Apprenticeships in
hospitality."
Her comments came as youth unemployment stands just below the one million mark at around 20 per cent of the population aged between 16 and 24, according to latest government figures. The unemployment rate for graduates has doubled from 10 per cent to 20 per cent since the economic downturn started.
Ms McDonald said that in many deprived parts of the country heavily dependent on the public sector, companies such as McDonald's "offer not just jobs but careers".
She cited the example of one employee, a 22-year-old part-time worker Alix Potts, who was also training to be a hairdresser. Ms McDonald said: "Alix decided to join us full time, becoming one of our first apprentices and in the process gained better qualifications than she'd left school with."
She added: "The truth is that as the worlds of business and education move ever closer, companies like ours are becoming educators as well as employers." A spokesman for the Business Department said: "A degree is a good investment and is one of the best pathways to achieving a good job and rewarding career."
Reader views (38)
i totally agree with Jill McDonald as i also fell in a similar trap of being a graduate with a degree in applied chemistry in 1986 and unable to find a job in my field,although overqualified at the time,as i was told at the interview, McDonalds still gave me the oppertunity to start afresh as a crew member at the time, and some 25 years later, i am still working for McDonalds UK, i thank McDonalds for giving me this chance which very few employers did at the time.
- Suresh Patel, Essex, 01/11/2011 11:58
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Jill McDonald is entirely correct and it's annoyingly gratifying to see so many examples of the snobbery she describes in the comments below.
McDonald's have consistently invested in their people for many years and are streets ahead of their competition in this area.
Those who describe the qualifications on offer through McDonald's as 'flipping burgers' show only their own ignorance. The qualifications available through McDonald's include nationally-recognised, government-funded, professionally-administered, City & Guilds-designed, and Ofsted-audited qualifications in Adult Numeracy/Literacy at level 1 or 2 either on their own or as part of a level 2 Apprenticeship in multi-skilled Hospitality.
There are also transferable skills in the level 3 diploma in Shift Management and even opportunities for higher level employees with Foundation Degrees for Business Managers.
I left school with very few qualifications due to social issues. When I joined McDonald's, I started out 'flipping burgers' (although quite how one flips a burger when it's trapped between a heavy flat grill below and a computer controlled hydraulically operated hot plate above, I don't know) and now run a multi-million pound business, serving hundreds of thousands of customers every year.
McJob for life.
- Paul, Devonshire, England, 31/05/2011 15:27
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I have over 500 employee's who work within the 6 store's that I run as an Operations Supervisor for McDonalds, Jill is 100% correct in what she says, The lady she uses in the article is employed by myself and has now become a Manager in the store she works at. Proof that studying whilst working really can pay, both in Qualifications & Salary!!
Proud to be associated with the Company now & alway............. 
Darren
- Darren, Lincolnshire, 13/05/2011 15:26
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@ Paul Humphreys, Essex
Spot-on.
Far too many times over the years I've had to deal with or manage grads with not one ounce of common-sense or, the ability to perform simple tasks e.g. write a simple business letter, speak professionally etc. The CBI have been 100% right on this issue for the last few years as the standards of simple grammar & basic business skills have declined massively.
- Leo, London UK, 11/05/2011 19:26
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Glad to see a direct attack on the snobbery implicit in a lot of the higher education agenda, but several posters above have put their finger on the flaws in Ms McD's arguments. Does she have a definition of education as distinct from training, for example? What has not been stressed enough is that, if a degree IS indeed a 'qualification' for a demanding job (which is a very tangled question) , for the last forty-five years the business sector has been having a free lunch by landing this responsibility on the public purse.
In earlier times it was axiomatic that employers trained their own school-leavers, at whatever level, not just trade skills. It wasn't nearly such a free-and-easy system, but it ensured some correlation between the supply of graduates in a particular discipline with the forseeable demand for their skills. Technical and FE colleges ran courses in those topics that local employers saw a demand for:
In the 70's huge schools developed in disciplines the market had no direct demand for, egged on by the empire-building ambitions of academics. There was a lot of cynicism in this process: for example, a proliferation of architecture graduates who would never become partners, which was very handy for the large practices who had no need to train up their own technicians. We are witnessing the unravelling of a huge state-funded Ponzi scheme: I only feel sorry for the student cannon-fodder who have been sent to slaughter to suit other peoples' agendas.
- mdj e10, london uk, 11/05/2011 18:49
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I have just finished reading Dambiso Moyo's (sp?) 'how the west was lost' and from her perspective, the education sector are letting kids down, simply because we dont keep kids in school long enough (among other things). Business and its associated research and development (and the profits from both) is being leaked away from the UK cutting investment in people and business over here. We need serious investment in our education system, backed by the govt, and not just in relation to degrees. And whilst i applaud mcd's for embracing apprenticeships and such like, the income and accompanying (v. limited) spending power are not going to boost the economy and is not going to be an attractive offer , except to the most desperate for work. this is not how we build a strong economy.
- clare jordan, wakefield, england, 11/05/2011 17:59
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£9,000 a year in fees or a £12,000 a year job?
If all you end up with after 4 years is a £40k debt, a 2:2 from Sheffield in Philosophy (sorry Sheffield) and a place on the dole, which is the smarter choice?
- Nobby Clark, Hither and thither, 11/05/2011 17:38
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..i think with a surname like McDonald - she felt she had no choice except to work for them when she grew up!!
...ok, what the heck - SUPERSIZE ME for an extra £1.50! (and 3 sweet and SOUR dips please)
- Tim Nicee (but Dim), london england, 11/05/2011 17:34
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She is dead right.
What use is a degree in Media Studies?
- Anglo, The Heart of England, 11/05/2011 17:19
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Sylvia, london. Quote the hourly rates if you like, but these are the Legal Minimum Wage Rates. Show aptitude and you will be paid more. Cheryl, 20% of graduates are unemployed, with as we all know, huge debts.Having a McJob doesn't mean you are thick or uneducated. Your comment reflects what the article is about. Snobbery.
I know of one young lad who got a part time McJob whilst studying for his A levels. For whatever reason got more hours, (nights and weekends). Progressed, thanks to on the job training to shift runner, then second and first assistant, and is now running his own store for Mcdonalds. Funny part about it is if he had gone to Uni he would now be paying back quite a considerable amount per month off his student loan. instead he keeps all his taxed income, and is streets ahead of his mates who went to Uni. So as Chappers points out, it is not education, but drive, and the willingness to learn.
- alan, carlisle uk, 11/05/2011 16:54
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Methinks Ms McDonald has had one too many 'happy meals'.
- Paul McCrystal, Brighton, UK, 11/05/2011 16:46
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The problem is that it's too easy and cheaper to import workers rather than training youngsters as we used to. Also way too many jobs now require academic qualifications when common sense and acumen are more useful. I left school with a handshake became a director of a global company. I often ran into the snobbery that says you can't be taken seriously unless you did a degree in something that would be of absolutely no use at this stage of your career.
- Mark, London, 11/05/2011 16:38
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Yes, have a wealthy father, go to public school, get a first class business degree, take a series of highly paid executive jobs, tell poor people university is not for the likes of them but never mind, you can always get an NVQ at Maccy Ds.
- Trousers, London, 11/05/2011 16:20
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My goodness this is a disgrace, infuriating! Average starting salary for a graduate in 2010 in the UK was £23,000. McD pay 16-18 year olds £3.64 per hour, 18-21s £4.92 ph, over 21's £5.93!! On the McD web-page they advertise for a graduate trainee manager at £18,500: "you're a graduate, or someone with...at least two years management eperience under your belt"!!!!
- Sylvia, London, UK, 11/05/2011 16:14
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I think that there has traditionally been too much emphasis on a university education being 'the way'. I know of many of my peers who went off to university because it was the done thing, did a degree in whatever they fancied, racked up huge debts and are now at the same level or lower than I am in terms of career, with a world of debt to worry over.
A McJob is an easy way to dummify a low-wage encounter with the workplace, but those questioning where the middle ground is, this IS the middle ground; employers who develop their staff, offer courses, training and further education in the workplace. I worked for years in admin in different types of businesses, gaining invaluable experience and business acumen as I went along. Degreeless but intelligent, I realised after a few years that I was doing the jobs that my bosses were paid to do and struck out on my own with no capital, in the middle of a recession.
You see it isn't education or opportunity that young people lack, it is drive and ambition. And that isn't lacking because people are lazy, it's because successive governments have told people to know their place, shut up, put up, get debts, get a mortgage and keep working until you die.
Well, not me.
- Chappers, Cheshire, UK, 11/05/2011 16:13
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Yes, leave school, get a job if you have the initiative. Meet real people, sort yourself out and think about things. Then if 'University' still appeals, you will be at the front of the queue (deservedly). Worked for me, and I had been down t'factory in Ilford (remeber those? Tea was good), not comfortably flipping burgers.
- Steve, London, England, 11/05/2011 15:57
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I Agree with her. Too many Degree students appear good on paper but they lack common sense and experience!
- Paul Humphreys, Essex, 11/05/2011 15:19
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Having just been out for lunch and served by a very spotty youth I like the idea that they should go to University untill their acne has cleared up!
As the young lad that served me was not a very good advert for healthy living.
- Mark, Central London, 11/05/2011 14:34
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Except that Jill McDonald has a degree from a University herself and has never worked behind a counter of one of her outlets. Her children will go to Public School and then Oxbridge.
What she is really about is removing the competition for her own children and the children of other executives at university.
What we need are proper Apprenticeships in industry not Macjobs or more Estate Agents
- The Last shall be First, Luton Beds, 11/05/2011 14:28
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Isn't 3 years at McDonalds the equivalent of a BA anyway? 4 years with Hons.
- Geoffrey Giuliano, Canada, 11/05/2011 14:16
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not too sure why george osbourne was in on the "getting a proper job" conference, as apart from a 6 month stint at harrods or selfridges many years ago, he has worked in politics all his life - not exactly someone who can offer advice on experience to those that need it.
- Leigh (formerly Yup), London, 11/05/2011 14:10
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I know a totally hopeless 22 year old currently completing the 3rd year of her degree, whom I wouldn't trust with the simplest task, and a 19 year old who didn't get as far as A levels who is trustworthy, dependable and has a way of getting things done. Guess which one I value most?
- Marianne, SW France/London, 11/05/2011 14:10
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It worked for you didn't it Jill, who would have thought that spotty kid serving on the counter would one day become head of McDonald's in the UK?
Except that you actually got yourself a 1st class Business Studies degree.
- Trousers, London, 11/05/2011 14:06
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EuroLND,London.Bang on the money there mate,what idiot thought the financial sector could sustain the needs of the whole country ,its just plain stupid.And still the people in power wonder why so many youngsters are out of work or wont work in dead end burger bar jobs.
- bazza, London, 11/05/2011 14:03
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I wonder if Jill will advise her own kids to get a job flipping burgers?
- Trousers, London, 11/05/2011 13:52
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I wonder why the class war always enters these debates. In my experience there are an ever increasing number of middle class children opting out of university in favour of employment.
As for McD I had believed for many years that the company offered opportunities for young people such as is stated in this article. Inverted snobbery has stopped many children of better off working class families from taking advantage so they undertake pointless university courses so as to look intelligent.
- BJ, East London, 11/05/2011 13:42
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I didn't go to university myself - am now doing very well indeed. Uni isn't for everyone and certainly not just a way of avoiding work for another 4 years. 25% of students now drop out because it was never for them in the first place.
This ridiculous drive to get everyone to go to university has done nothing except devalue the worth of those who don't.
- Jonathan, London, 11/05/2011 13:42
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I don't completely agree, but almost.
Just look at the unemployment rate among graduates. Going to University is a fantastic life experience (moving away from home etc), but I'm really not so sure about it being a good career move, particularly if your degree is in medieval toe-nail decoration rather than polymer chemistry or pure mathematics.
The last 10 years or so has seen a vast increase in the number of school leavers going on to University. Great ! But I can't help thinking that the motivation behind this was:
1. Mr Bliars need to reduce the youth unemployment figures
2. Financial. Shifting the cost of higher education onto the individual instead of the public purse. IE: to save the government of the time money.
I really would like to think that there were some genuine higher reasons, but I can't.
.
.
- Rog, Enfield, 11/05/2011 13:29
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In my generation, -(late 1950's grammar school)-only the cream of the crop went on to university.
The rest of us chose crafts /trades apprenticeships where we undertook further education through night school /day release college courses.
Those uninterested in further study had a myriad of options in the semi-skilled /unskilled sectors.
Due to the demise of the industrial heart of Britain these jobs are no longer available to the next generation.
Also to my mind, there are too many 'obscure' degrees being taught, where a graduate would struggle to find employment at the best of times.
- Huggy, Cumbernauld Scotland, 11/05/2011 13:27
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Is she married to her work? Or lucky surname. Agree with the sentiment though, not everyone can be a banker, someone's got to serve the burgers too
- Liberal, Amsterdam, Netherlands, 11/05/2011 13:27
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Mc off Jill?
- stuart, london, 11/05/2011 13:24
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She's right - there are too many students and too few degree-status jobs. Quite a number of graduates end up working in places like McD's anyway.
- Wispy Wonder, London, 11/05/2011 13:22
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No. no,no Jill
Latest Tory thinking is to turn surplus schoolleavers INTO burgers
- julia, oxford, 11/05/2011 13:14
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Foolish and reckless woman. NVQ's in burger flipping are lovely but will never replace a full and thorough education. An education is never wasted and even if not profitable in the first few years of leaving University, will prove to be for your benefit in years to come. No manager worth their salt has an empty spot on their CV in the qualifications section. It opens doors and polishes performance. Reckless woman.
- Cheryl, London ex-pat, 11/05/2011 13:12
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A grain of truth to this although there must be options that are in between a McD job and a uni education. Those are the 2 extremes. What this country is sorely lacking, compared to more successful economies such as Germany and France, is practical and vocational training. Not everyone wants to or should go to uni, absolutely right, but in the UK the options are precisely that: uni or McDonalds. Explains why you have no manufacturing sector left to generate wealth and everyone is employed in financial services, real estate, or is unemployed.
- EuroLND, London, 11/05/2011 13:11
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She's right though. It's better than a mickey mouse degree in noughts and crosses teenage job dodgers do.
- WooHoo, Fulham, 11/05/2011 13:08
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Do you want fries with that?
- Seymour Bwana And His Stick That Spoke Thunder, Surrey, 11/05/2011 13:05
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I can just see Osbourne/Cameron kids working for Mc. Daddy would have a heart attack.
After three years the kid would have earned 50 000,while the Uni kid would be around 35 000 in debt in real terms.
- dave, london, 11/05/2011 13:01
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