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Pam, if the cyclist was one person in a car would you think he was inconveniencing people in a bus and expect him to move over so the bus could move off first? Unfortunately there are too many people with this attitude on the road.

- Sarah, Australia, 16/11/2011 03:29
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@Terry - the solution is not to DRIVE on the roads in London. It's the motor traffic that causes congestion, deaths and pollution.

- Phil Lee, Cambridge, 03/11/2011 00:50
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Condolences to Brian's family and friends. It's particularly sad after seeing the photos of Brian, and the comments from his wife, that this was obviously someone so full of life.

- RogerW, London SE9, 01/11/2011 15:28
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With the greatest respect to the deceased and his family; there is an inconvenient truth in all of this, and that is not whether safe conditions are provided for cyclists by councils or some other body, but whether safe conditions are provided for vulnerable road-users by other less vulnerable road-users. Until motorists are properly punished in proportion for the damage they do, they will never take care of other's lives. If they were held culpable and the taking of a life was punished with mandatory life sentences, I am certain drivers would take a great deal more care and consideration and deaths like this would become rarer and rarer.

- May, London, 31/10/2011 18:33
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Sorry about brian; I think debiie he was one of those guys 'ahead' of the game, unfortunately, most of the rest of the 'players', as some posters here, just aren't with it - so however smart you try to be to outguess sometimes it doesnt work.We dont all follow the same highway code it seems, and kill with a vehicle is shrugged away almost.

@pam easy, cyclist doesnt want to get squashed out.

Maybe lots of brits including govt dont see cyclists in the same way as they are viewed/respected in western mainland europe.

I also think lots of brits see it as soft, no 'macho' ness in riding the green machine.
Sad and sad for dead guys family.

- steve rudds, bromley kent, 31/10/2011 18:22
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Readers may be interested to look at crapwalthamforest, a blog run by a local writer and keen cyclist. It's a bitter, and sometimes brutally funny, arraignment of how shabby and unsafe our cycling regime is compared with other countries, as well as the general tawdriness of our public space. He has clips of film from Bruges and Amsterdam, contrasted with terrifying and idiotic road layouts in Britain. He has not posted for a month or two, and I fear something may have happened to him. Testimony such as his, and the awful fate of this obviously level-headed experienced man deter me from attempting to get on a bike in this city. A blue strip on a rat-run is just a joke: gesturism rules in this country.

- mdj, London e10, 31/10/2011 17:52
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It's such a shame for a man to die only because TfL can't design a decent route! So sorry for your loss.
Chris - the thing is this is how people see cycling. While you and I and others might disagree it takes more than showing people statistics to convinve them otherwise. This can only be achieved if a safe, cohesive cycle track system is delivered. Until then more and more people will start cycling, but it will never be on a massive scale.

- Andrew, London, 31/10/2011 16:22
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Tim and Terry,

Cycling in London looks a lot more dangerous than it is. In fact in many ways it is safer cycling in London as in rush hour when can keep up with the traffic which is on the main fairly predictable (i.e. stuck in a traffic jam not going anywhere). What more most London drivers are used to cyclists and are expecting you to be there, of course there are a few morons but you get that everywhere not just in London. My 16 mile commute is pretty much cycle lane or bus lane all the way. You simply do not get that out of London and in fact out of London I often feel less safe as there is often no cycling lanes at all and cars come from behind at speed and will push through small gap, also they often go round corners on the wrong side of the road and they simply do not expect a cyclists to be there.

To say cycling in London is dangerous and you would not recommend it to anyone is wrong and misguided.

Chris

- Chris, London, 31/10/2011 16:08
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Tim and Terry,

Cycling in London looks a lot more dangerous than it is. In fact in many ways it is safer cycling in London as in rush hour when can keep up with the traffic which is on the main fairly predictable (i.e. stuck in a traffic jam not going anywhere). What more most London drivers are used to cyclists and are expecting you to be there, of course there are a few morons but you get that everywhere not just in London. My 16 mile commute is pretty much cycle lane or bus lane all the way. You simply do not get that out of London and in fact out of London I often feel less safe as there is often no cycling lanes at all and cars come from behind at speed and will push through small gap, also they often go round corners on the wrong side of the road and they simply do not expect a cyclists to be there.

To say cycling in London is dangerous and you would not recommend it to anyone is wrong and misguided.

Chris

- Chris, London, 31/10/2011 16:06
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Terry's right. I used to cycle a hundred miles a week, but now my bike spends most of its life gathering dust in the shed. Drivers never used to like us cyclists much and now they hate us. As for tipper lorries, they are the worst of the worst; I used to drive one for a time, and my 'colleagues' normally comprised construction ground-workers or labourers, who, fed up with toiling outside in bad weather, preferring to have a nice, warm cab and relatively little discomfort. HGV drivers are no longer the Knights of the Road; they are a bad-tempered, motley crew who consider psychopathic behaviour and vile manners to be desirable attributes. If you want a safe ride, cycle in France, where you have far less chance of getting killed. Here, you can be the most skilful cyclist in the country and still get murdered by some idiot who shouldn't even be in charge of a shopping-trolly. Last and in no way least, my sincere condolences to the poor widow of this man. What a senseless waste.

- Neighbour, London,, 31/10/2011 15:21
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I think Terry's first comment sums it up! I consider myself a reasonable cyclist but there's no way in this world I would recommend someone close to me to cycle in London. It is just too dangerous if you let your concentration slip for a short time; I am constantly "riding on the brakes" expecting that car to pull out of the side road in front of me, that 4WD to overtake me and immediately turn left etc etc.

I think Pam's comment has been answered well enough already and would agree with the responses. A lot of traffic ignores ASLs anyway; I still position myself in front of those who do so without in any way considering myself arrogant, merely wanting to be seen and be safe(r).

It's a shame as I'd like more people to be able to cycle without fear, but until we get segregated lanes and / or better driver behaviour it just isn't going to happen. (Even on the few segregated cycle lanes we have to put up with inconsiderate pedestrians too!)

I should say I'm a motorist too, and as a cyclist I DO stop at red lights!

BTW does anyone know what became of the "C**p cycling in Waltham Forest" blogger?

- Tim Plumridge, London, UK, 31/10/2011 15:03
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@ Pam

Maybe the driver kept his cool because he knew the cyclist was well within his rights, in fact I even suspect this may have been in an ASL box. Even if not, it's still the cyclist just trying to get to where they're trying to go, without being squashed into the gutter.

To be honest I find it appalling that people have similar views to yourself, it's actually sickening.

- Paul, London, 31/10/2011 13:43
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I drive extensively in London, sometimes more than 50 miles per day including pretty well every day along the A24 which includes one of the cycling superhighways. I see hundreds of cyclists every day. I have never seen an accident or anything even come close to an accident.
In fact I am always amazed and gratified how well the cyclists and the car drivers co-exist.
I hope I am not holding a hostage to fortune, and, as with everybody, my heart goes out to Debbie Dorling and her family, but I would have to say that, in my experience the progress London has made as a cycling friendly city over the last couple of years has been very impressive.
That's not say there are always morons on bikes and in cars who can spoil it for everyone else (and often themselves).

- Steve TE, london UK, 31/10/2011 13:39
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Using the news report of the tragic death of a human to air moronic grievances is pathetic. Pam; you should take a long hard look at yourself and examine who’s behaviour is the most arrogant.

- Mark, London, 31/10/2011 13:26
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Pam - I fear you've missed the point.

The cyclist would have been sat in front of the bus for safety reasons - cyclists are often seriously injured or killed when the driver of a large vehicle hasn't seen them waiting on the inside and attempts to turn left. That's why there are large painted cycle boxes at traffic lights , so cyclists can make themselves absolutely visible to bus and HGV drivers.


Good cycling practice as opposed to pig-headedness, I'd wager.

- Steve, Bow, London, 31/10/2011 13:22
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PAM. Your comments are everything that is wrong with peoples attitudes towards cyclists in london. We are firstly commuters just like you who trying not to be killed on our way to work. The cyclist you mention is perfectly entitled to sit in the middle of the lane, we aren't in the way when the bus will move off and stop 100yards down the road. And I would suggest that that the cyclist positioned themselves there so that the bus couldn't squeeze them into the gutter when they went past. But more than anything else it show's your mentality of me me me, your journey was more important than theirs so you should have priority because they're only a cyclist. I own a car and I cycle to work because of the three options it's by far the quickest (including red lights i might add), maybe you should try it before making uninformed comments on someone that was merely trying not to be killed.

- Rob, London, 31/10/2011 13:16
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My commiserations to the family of this poor man. The problem isn't with cycling in London at all, but with poorly implemented schemes such as the 'super' highway which is all spin and PR and designed on top of a road system that is designed first and foremost around the needs of drivers and barely anyone else.

If TFL had the guts to take on the motor lobby to provide decent cycling facilities, or better yet free and extensive training for everyone who wants it then the number of cyclists who become "just a statistic"

@ Pam, London

The example you give of the cyclist pulling up in front of the bus is pretty much good practice and taught as assertive cycling. You need to be seen to be safe. The altertnative is sitcking by the kerb and being of risk of being squashed - left hand turning large vehicles running over 'timid' cyclists staying out the way by the kerb are the largest proportion of accidents and fatalities on our streets.

- James, London, 31/10/2011 13:05
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My deepest condolences to the family of Brian Dorling on the loss of their loved one. However, I am inclined to agree with Terry that cycling on the main roads in London is tantamount to madness. Whenever I am travelling on a bus in Central London, which is frequently, and I see the cyclists weaving in and out of the traffic, I fear for them. I know there are both considerate and inconsiderate cyclists, but when one deliberately (and in my opinion arrogantly) stopped right in front of a Victoria bound no. 73 bus at a red light, positioning himself right in the middle of the front of the bus so that the bus driver had to wait for him to move before he could move the bus, I thought what a nuisance that a busload of people trying to get home from work were being inconvenienced by one person who thought the road belonged to him. I don't know how the bus driver kept his cool.

- Pam, London, UK, 31/10/2011 12:50
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Sadly Terry's view is held by a huge chunk of society, not because they hate bicycles, but because this is exactly the kind of impression you get when looking at London roads. Now statistics may look favourable, but they don't really make you WANT cycle, do they?
On the other hand Terry - if NHS is crap should we stop being sick? I don't think this is an answer.
What needs to be done is to create such and environment where people like Terry come to think cycling in London is safe and enjoyable. Because in the end you can throw piles of statistics at people and never get them to cycle - build safe cycle tracks leading where people want to go, where they don't have to mix with cars, and you get a cycling revolution.

- Andrew, London, 31/10/2011 12:42
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Rest in Peace, Brian.

- Jane, Islington, 31/10/2011 12:37
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Terry's view is simplistic and ill-informed, i.e. wrong. Loads of people cycle safely every day in London and elsewhere.

The real issue here is that the Bow roundabout is considered by cycling experts to be fundamentally unsafe. This particular Cycling Superhighway is not fit for purpose, and TfL need to address cyclists' concerns without further delay.

Barclays, whose corporate colour graces these facilities, urgently need to put pressure on TfL to bring Superhigway 2 up to scratch and so save their reputation from being tarnished by association with a duff product; it seems that Boris is either too weak to get TfL to do this or is in fact being two-faced in his claims about making London a cyclised city.

- Austen, London, 31/10/2011 12:35
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Terry, per mile travelled cycling is safer than walking. If every London cyclist decided to drive to work instead, can you imagine the congestion? Cyclists outnumber drivers on many roads in London now, but this horrible death was predicted when experts told Boris that painting roads blue does not make them magically safe. Drivers are just as inattentive, reckless and stupid as before, and HGV drivers in particular have an appalling safety record. Boris, for all his guff about cycling, is the same old pro-car Tory, focussed on "smoothing traffic flow"- ie making things easier and faster for motorists and GUARANTEEING more deaths.

- Harry Cole, Bow, 31/10/2011 12:25
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That's not the solution, Terry

- Londoner, London, 31/10/2011 12:22
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dont cycle on the roads in london--it is sheer madness

- terry sullivan, morden england, 31/10/2011 11:59
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